They betrayed you. Now what?
How do you fight hard against someone and still care for them?
In Republican Mesa, Arizona, Julie Spilsbury was known for her council seat and her cinnamon rolls. When she endorsed Democrats, friends and neighbors who’d known her for decades launched a historic effort to kick her out of office. The man leading it did what few others would: sit down with her and talk.
In this special episode of A Braver Way, Moni brings you a powerful story from Dispatches from the Divide, a limited podcast series she hosts about ordinary people who make extraordinary choices. Then, she and April Lawson pull out four strategies for anyone navigating pain and conflict this midterm election season — from staying in a community that hurt you to getting close to the people you defeat.
Credits
Host & Executive Producer: Mónica Guzmán
Senior Producer: Tracy Egbas
Producer: Jessica Jones
Associate Producer & Graphic Designer: Fredo Viola
Contributors: April Lawson & Travis Tripodi
Artist in Residence: Gangstagrass
A production of Reclaim Curiosity
Distribution Partners: KUOW, Braver Angels, and Deseret News
Financial Supporter: M.J. Murdock Charitable Trust
Dispatches from the Divide is a co-production of BYUradio, Disagree Better and Braver Angels. You can find the rest of the episodes of this series here: https://www.byuradio.org/dispatches-from-the-divide/episodes
Links & References
Call to Action
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Transcript
[00:00:00]
Mónica Guzmán:
…we are in our civic life, can we try to never pretend that the world where we get things done is the only world that matters? …the world of humans who hurt and are hurt and need to take care of each other. And Bob represents somebody who was able to do both.
April Lawson:
He totally does.
Mónica:
And not back down just because it hurt Julie.
April:
Right. Well, and I think that's like, it is, it's totally awesome. And I feel like that's in some ways the core of everything we talk about, right? How do you hold your —
Mónica:
— from Arizona. Now, to back up, I was thinking about this. A Braver Way, at its core, we're about helping you all make different choices.
Bridging divides takes that. If we go by the default, we're going to stay in our silos and the narrower worldviews that those give us. It's going to be harder to stay grounded. It's going to be harder to see the reality of the issues that challenge us and the people who are around us, maybe with whom we have deep relationships, but who disagree with us and that becomes something untenable. We don't want that. We want to push back on that. We are about helping you make different choices. This story from Arizona is going to be told to you in a different way.
Some months ago, my friend Julie Rose, over at BYU Radio, reached out and said, "We're working on this podcast series that's telling these four really incredible stories about people crossing the divide in surprising ways." I said, "Whoa, okay, cool." She said, "Do you want to host it?" She summarized the four stories for me. I was instantly hooked. I said, "Oh, my gosh, where do I sign up? This is great." So over the summer, we worked together. This month launched the podcast series. It's called "Dispatches from the Divide." There are four stories told over eight episodes.
And what we have for you today is one of those stories told in two back-to-back episodes from "Dispatches from the Divide" that we have put together and brought to you here today. I can't wait for you to hear this story. It's something else. The people and the choices they make. Stick around. I don't want to spoil anything, but stick around because when this story has been told, me and April are going to chat. And we even came up with four really specific strategies that you can take into your adventures, misadventures across the divide, inspired by what these two people in Mesa, Arizona did.
So big thanks to BYU Radio and also the partners on this project, Braver Angels and Disagree Better. I'm an advisor at both those organizations. I'm so proud to support the work they do and really grateful that I get to share these stories with you today and grateful for everyone who had a hand in putting them together. So without further ado, here is a piece, a taste, a story from "Dispatches from the Divide."
Julie Spilsbury:
My campaign manager texted me that the petitions had come online and sent them over and probably against my better judgment. I spent the next few hours reading every single name on that list.
Mónica:
This is Julie Spilsbury, and the petition she's talking about was an attempt to kick her off the Mesa City Council. In early 2025, Julie had served one four-year term and had just been reelected to another in Mesa, Arizona. But now, she was scrolling through page after page of signatures, nearly 4,000 in all, that would officially trigger a recall election to kick her out of office.
Julie:
Those names are kind of seared into my brain.
Mónica:
People she's known for 20 years raised her kids alongside, volunteered in schools with, gone to church with. And at the bottom of each page, the person who had collected all those signatures had to sign their own name. As Julie is scrolling, she keeps seeing one signature gatherer's name again and again.
[00:05:00]
Julie:
His beautiful handwriting, too. So it was like very, I recognized, and it was just page after page after page. And it was around 200 signatures.
Mónica:
This guy hadn't just circulated a petition page around the dinner table, collected a few signatures, and turned it in. He'd obviously spent hours, days even, gathering hundreds of signatures to get Julie out of office.
Julie:
Oh my gosh, he really doesn't like me. Like, he's really mad at me. Like, I think I was just shocked at like how much anger there was behind this. Like, people are really mad at me.
Mónica:
But that was only the beginning. Within a year, Julie would find herself at the center of an unprecedented recall election. And she'd end up in a surprising spot with the man who triggered the recall.
This is Dispatches from the Divide, stories of ordinary people in extraordinary situations that take an unexpected turn. I'm Mónica Guzmán. I've spent my whole career learning, writing, and speaking about how we can keep from tearing ourselves apart over our differences. More and more Americans see members of the other political party as a threat to our way of life. Not just wrong on certain issues, but dangerous. Immoral. Evil. Even. So that turns every political campaign, from president of the United States to your local school board, into a fight to obliterate the enemy at all costs.
And most of us tell pollsters we're exhausted and disappointed by this. But what's the alternative when the stakes are so high? In this episode, a story of two people caught in the most polarizing of political fights who end up in a place neither of them saw coming. Up until the last year or so, Julie Spilsbury's claim to fame around Mesa, Arizona was cinnamon rolls.
Julie:
I would bring them to city council meetings. I would make them for Christmas for all the employees. You know, like I would bring 100 to our city council. So I am just spreading the delicious brown sugar cinnamon filling nice and thick that gets gooey. I just put a layer of butter on my dough. This is my own recipe that I tweaked. And I think I've perfected the cinnamon roll. And I also started what I like to call cinnamon roll diplomacy.
There was a pastor. He was very antagonistic towards my campaign, but I had never met him before. So I reached out to him and I just said, hey, I was wondering if we could meet. So I took a pan of cinnamon rolls and we just talked and I told him about myself and why I wanted to run and told him about my family and what I'd done in the community and what was important to me. And it went great.
Mónica:
That run for Mesa City Council in 2020 wasn't something Julie had planned on. She'd been running a small tree care company with her husband.
Julie:
But really I was a stay at home mom and I volunteered like crazy at all their schools. So I have six kids. They're all within eight years of each other. And so they all went through school kind of all together. So I just spent so, so much time. I was PTO president three different times at the elementary school. And if I wasn't the PTO president, I was the vice president or the secretary or just was doing that. When my kids got into junior high school, I was super involved in all of their choir boosters, volleyball boosters, orchestra boosters.
Mónica:
So when she heard that the mayor wanted to talk to her about running for Mesa City Council,
Julie:
I was like, no, thank you. But really what happened is I started watching the council meetings and started realizing there was one woman on the city council out of seven people and she wasn't a mother. And all the people, all the women that I, you know, rubbed shoulders with every day at volleyball games and PTO meetings weren't represented on that city council and that my voice really was needed.
Mónica:
Julie got 55% of the vote, beat the incumbent and took office in January 2021 during the COVID-19 pandemic.
Two months later, she was still figuring out how to work her council email and log on to meetings remotely when the mayor introduced an ordinance to make it illegal for most businesses and government agencies in Mesa to discriminate against someone because of their race, religion, age, sexual orientation, gender identity, and several other categories. It was the most controversial item the Mesa City Council had taken up in years. And Julie was in the hot seat when the vote was taken. Here's a bit of what she said in that city council meeting on Zoom.
[00:10:00]
Julie:
I don't have a formal statement prepared, but I do have some things I've been writing down and that I would like to express right now. And I'm already crying.
Mónica:
Nondiscrimination ordinances, sometimes called bathroom bills, had been political flashpoints in cities across the country. Mesa City Council seats are nonpartisan, like they are in many cities, but everyone knew Julie was a lifelong Republican representing an overwhelmingly Republican district.
Julie:
I have received 1,107 emails. That's not counting the text messages, phone calls, Facebook Messenger messages, Facebook posts.
Mónica:
Most of those messages wanted Julie to vote against the nondiscrimination ordinance, but Julie just couldn't bring herself to do it.
Julie:
At the end of the day, I have to do what I feel is right and what's in my heart.
Mónica:
She voted yes. The ordinance passed 5 to 2. Julie felt like she'd voted her conscience, but she was shaken by the backlash, by the sheer number and harshness of the messages, by how quickly supporters could turn on her.
Julie:
I knew I'd have to make hard decisions, but I thought that people know me. So even if they don't agree with my decisions or something, they'll know that I'm a good person and I'm just trying to do what's right. I was very naive going into it for sure.
Mónica:
Once that vote was done, Julie settled into the more routine business of city council work. Over the next four years, her service on the council was pretty typical and not too controversial, until 2023, when she voted for the city to purchase a hotel for transitional homeless housing. The hotel was in her district, and her yes vote exposed a fundamental philosophical difference between her and some of her constituents.
Julie:
A lot of people will be like, "It doesn't matter what you think, it's what your constituents want." So our districts have about 85,000 people, and so I would have to know what 46,000 people want for me to really know what the majority of my district want. It's not just 20 loud emails that you get. That's not the majority we're just trying. For me, I have to do what I feel is right. That's the only way I know how to do this.
Mónica:
So those first four years in office were rocky, but rewarding. And when it came time to run for re-election in 2024, Julie didn't hesitate.
Julie:
I was at every community event, in every meeting, in every board. I poured my whole heart into this job. It paid off. I won 67%, which I see that kind of a number, and I'm like, "Okay, that means 33% of my district didn't want me in office," which hurts, but also 67% is a really big win in politics. That's a high win.
Mónica:
And then she made a fateful decision.
Julie:
My campaign manager called me three times. Three times, begging me, "Please don't do this. Please don't do this." We'll be right back.
Braver Angels Announcer:
Hey, Dispatches from the Divide listeners. Braver Angels is proud to partner with this show. We've built something rare, a space where people actually stay in conversation instead of walking away. We're Braver Angels, America's largest cross-partisan grassroots movement renewing civic culture by building together across differences. We call it courageous citizenship. This requires a willingness to listen, disagree honestly, and stick around anyway. Take the first step today at BraverAngels.org.
Mónica:
A month after Julie Spilsbury was reelected by a wide margin to a nonpartisan city council seat in July of 2024, she publicly endorsed Democrat Kamala Harris for president. Then she went a step further and recorded an ad for Democrat Ruben Gallego for U.S. Senate over the Trump-backed candidate Kari Lake.
Julie:
I'm supporting Ruben Gallego. We might not agree on everything all the time. We should look for candidates who demonstrate integrity, compassion, and service to others, regardless of party affiliation. I don't need to be a Democrat to know that he has the character to lead Arizona forward.
Mónica:
People who knew Julie personally were not surprised to find out that she didn't support Trump. She stayed pretty nonpartisan in most of her comments and online posts, but her husband Jeremy had caused a stir among their conservative neighbors with some pointed criticism on Facebook of Trump's immigration policies. Making that ad for Gallego, though, was a big public step for Julie, and it aired on primetime TV in Mesa.
Julie:
All my campaign team was begging me not to do it. They were just like, "Julie, you're going to make people mad and you're not going to get anything from this." And I'm like, "But that's not why I'm doing it." It was one of those things that felt so much bigger to me than just partisan politics.
I put so much thought and so much prayer into this, and I felt like this was what God wanted me to do. And I have to look in the mirror every day, right? I got to look my kids in the eyes, and I got to do what feels right to me, and my integrity is everything to me.
[00:15:00]
Mónica:
Plus, as a nonpartisan member of a local city council, she didn't think who she supported in a national election would be that big of a deal for people.
Julie:
When you call 911 and you have your trash picked up and your water is turned on and you drive on the roads, no one cares if you're Republican or Democrat. And that's the work of a city council. Like, so if I got reelected by 67% of the vote, about a third already didn't support me and I already knew that. So I just assumed I would make mad the people who were already mad at me. She was wrong.
Bob Hathcock:
That was basically the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Had it not been for that, I'm convinced nothing would have ever happened.
Mónica:
This guy right here, his name is Bob Hathcock. That's the name Julie would eventually see on page after page of the petition to recall her. Bob was a top signature gatherer.
Bob:
Not to pat myself on the back, but I was told that I collected upwards of 15% of the effort.
Mónica:
And not only that, he struck the match that ignited the recall.
Bob:
I was the first person that I know of to actually go to the city clerk's office that August and pull the recall packet. The clerk was stunned because they'd never had anything at the city level in 140 years. And she says, I'm going to have to get back with you. So we made another appointment. She dug deep and found the packet and I took it from there.
Mónica:
At this point in the story, the summer of 2024, Bob had already been watching Julie pretty closely. He'd actually voted for her the first time she ran in 2020 because she was really involved in the schools and seemed like a nice person. They're both members of the same church and only live about a mile from each other. So their circles overlap quite a bit, but they'd never had a conversation. Like Julie, Bob's also a lifelong Republican.
Bob:
Particularly in the last couple of years, probably I've leaned a little bit more to the right.
Mónica:
When Julie voted for the non-discrimination ordinance in 2021, Bob was one of the people who emailed asking her not to. She did not email back.
Bob:
I had hoped for any response and I got nothing. And so that turned to me from that point.
Mónica:
So Bob did not vote for Julie when she ran for reelection in 2024. He was one of the 33 percent. But he was actually fine with the outcome because she'd won fair and square. And then Julie endorsed Harris and Gallego. Bob says for him and others in Julie's district, the timing of it was the problem.
Bob:
Just a week or two after you secured your election by a wide margin, almost two to one, you made the choice to go public for some extremely liberal candidates while you're representing the most conservative district of our six districts in the most conservative big city in America. So there's a problem here. It's not just your personal preference. You're an elected official and we thought, okay, well, if you're going to support Harris and Gallego, how are you going to vote for us on upcoming things for the next four years?
Mónica:
So Bob started asking people he knew in Julie's district what they thought about trying to recall her. But when he started filling out the paperwork and talking to political insiders,
Bob:
basically, after getting a lot of people excited about it, I made a decision to personally back off because I realized it was bigger than Bob.
Mónica:
Nobody had ever pulled off a successful recall in Mesa. It would take more money and expertise than Bob had. But the fire he lit did not die out. It just smoldered through the 2024 election. Bob and his allies were pleased that Trump won, but disappointed to see Ruben Gallego, the Democrat she had endorsed for Senate, also win.
Bob:
We did get our president, but we ended up with two Democratic senators to represent Arizona, which officially turned us into a blue state.
Mónica:
Enthusiasm for trying to recall Julie was building again. In December that year, Julie voted with the rest of the city council unanimously to raise utility rates. The meeting was packed with angry citizens. When Bob got up to speak, he looked directly at Julie and warned her that something was coming. Here's that moment from the meeting.
Bob:
I think you've got some serious hurdles and I know you're aware of them. I spent so much time researching all of your interviews and for the life of me, I can't figure out how you could have such a hate for a presidential candidate to where you would betray your conservative voters. Mr. Hathcock, you really have to be clear.
Julie:
I was very taken aback like, oh gosh, he's really looked up on me. Like he had been like researching me, listening to podcast episodes, like he'd been really following me and just like at his anger towards me.
Mónica:
Suddenly Bob was on Julie's radar, but she did not yet know that Bob was a key driver in the recall effort. At this point in December 2024, she'd only heard rumors that some conservatives in her district might try to get a recall on the ballot. She wasn't really worried.
[00:20:00]
Julie:
No one took it seriously. Like everyone I talked to was like, there's no way they're going to get the signatures.
Mónica:
Nobody in Mesa's entire history had ever been recalled before. So why would a cinnamon-roll-making lifelong Republican stay-at-home mom be the first? Stay with us.
So recall elections are rare, but not unheard of in America. They're a legal and perfectly legitimate civic action that voters have a right to initiate. But they're usually not easy to pull off. In the case of Julie Spilsbury's district, organizers had four months to collect 3,070 signatures in support of putting her recall on the ballot. If you've ever collected signatures for anything, you know that's a big number that typically requires a mix of dedicated volunteers and paid signature gatherers. In early 2025, a national conservative political action group headquartered just down the road in Phoenix decided to help fund the recall against Julie. That was the first thing she hadn't counted on. The second thing was Bob Hathcock.
Bob:
I was all in. I got my material and my clipboard and I went out the first Saturday in February and I got 50 signatures before lunch.
Mónica:
He started with his neighbors and when he saw how much interest there was, he got obsessed. That's his word. Even to the point of ignoring his wife on their anniversary.
Bob:
My wife and I went to brunch. We had a movie planned for the afternoon and then we were going to go get a nice dinner.
It was raining cats and dogs, crazy torrential rain. We had a two-hour gap between brunch and the movie. So, instead of spending time with my wife, I thought, what can I do? I went and got an umbrella, which we don't use much here in Mesa, and I got my clipboard and within 30 minutes, I went over and I had 10 signatures in three households. And I can't tell you where we ate brunch that day. I can't tell you what movie we watched, but I can tell you every single person that signed that petition on our anniversary. So I was all in, obsessed with this mission.
Mónica:
When the petitions were validated by the city clerk, they'd exceeded the threshold by nearly 800 signatures. Julie Spilsbury read every single one. And that's when she saw Bob's name over and over as a top signature gatherer.
Julie:
Bob Hathcock, Bob Hathcock, Bob Hathcock. And I'd actually had several people tell me like Bob Hathcock came to my house. Like a lot of people had been telling me that Bob had been trying to get signatures. But when I saw that, I was like, it's just like a punch in the gut every time.
Mónica:
Julie started reaching out to the people she knew on the list, asking them to meet with her and Jeremy, her husband, because this didn't feel like the two campaigns she'd been in before. And when it's happening just a year into her second term, triggered by thousands of people she worked with, served with, worshipped with, she can point to their homes from her doorstep.
Julie:
These are people I raised my kids with who are supporting this, who have believed the lie that I am now evil. Like this is not just like a difference of opinion. Okay, we disagree about politics. This is like Julie has like sold her soul to the devil. And I just think like how did my own community do this to me?
Mónica:
But only a handful of the people who signed the petition or posted hurtful things online agreed to meet and talk. Julie says that was the hardest part of all.
Julie:
Like I have had so many people come up to me at church that put their hand on my arm or my shoulder or even hugged me and they say, you know, we love you, right? We think you're an amazing person. And I just want to be like, this doesn't feel like love if you won't even have a conversation with us. Like if you won't just like sit down and talk to us, like come have a peek into my heart and hear why I've done what I've done.
The about five-ish people who did sit down and have a conversation with us, we didn't agree at the end. That's not the point of these conversations, but I would have felt like they could see me as a person. So those names are kind of seared into my brain.
Mónica:
By August 2025, Julie had spent months trying to convince voters to keep her in office and pleading with anyone who disagreed to just meet and talk. The rejection was taking its toll. So she wrote a post on Facebook quoting some of the hurtful things that had been said by people she knew personally from church.
Julie:
That I shouldn't be around the church, that I should never be allowed to work with the youth, that I'm going to go to hell, that I am ruining Mesa for their children, for their daughters and their granddaughters. And I did not attach any names to any of these. I would never do that. But I did feel like it was important for me to make a post where I was just kind of explaining to people and especially members of the church, this is what people are saying to me.
[00:25:00]
Mónica:
And she ended the post like she always did with an invitation.
Julie:
I'm like, please, if you have any issues with anything I've done, let's have a conversation.
Bob:
So I said, OK, darn it, this is better late than never.
Mónica:
Bob Hathcock saw Julie's post and decided to take her up on it.
Bob:
And I texted her and said, hey, Julie, this is Bob. Wonder if we can get together and talk?
Julie:
And I will admit that I was like, oh, I can't remember asking for this, but this is Bob Hathcock. I said to my husband, like, oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh, Bob Hathcock wants to sit down and have a conversation. And he's like, that's amazing. And I'm like, yes, amazing and also terrifying.
Bob:
When my wife asked me where I was going, she looked at me like I was an alien. She says, you have got to be kidding me.
Mónica:
Next time on Dispatches from the Divide, Bob and Julie meet face to face. I'm Mónica Guzmán. See you then.
Julie:
I was very uncomfortable and just because I thought like this could go bad.
Mónica:
On a hot Arizona night in August 2025, Julie Spilsbury was on edge. Bob Hathcock was on his way over to her house.
Julie:
He's like one of the most antagonistic people towards me in all of this. I feel things deeply and strongly and so I was a little bit worried. Bob was worried too.
Bob:
I was. You don't know which way it could go because of everything that had happened up to this point.
Mónica:
A year earlier, Bob had been the first person to suggest trying to get Julie recalled from her seat on the Mesa City Council. Julie's district is one of the most conservative in Mesa, Arizona, and she's a lifelong Republican. But her community, like so many others across the country, had grown more and more polarized around certain topics and candidates. So when she publicly endorsed Democrats in the 2024 presidential and Senate elections, Bob and others in the district decided Julie had to go. A conservative political action group based in Arizona got on board and Bob single-handedly collected hundreds of signatures to help trigger the recall. Now, in the heat of the contest to kick her out of office, Julie and Bob are about to sit down and talk for the very first time.
Julie:
He came over to our house and sat on our couch. And for an hour we talked and it was a little bit heated at times. I listened to him. He listened to me. We both cried. We both shared a lot of, you know, hard things and tender things. And he just really wanted me to know that he saw that post.
Mónica:
Julie had written a post on Facebook listing some of the cruel things people had said about her online and by email.
Julie:
And that he said, "I just wanted to know when I was out getting signatures, I didn't hear this stuff."
Bob:
I was not there to minimize those things that she really heard or felt, but I just wanted to let her know that was 180 degrees from my experience with the neighbors. And we have so many common friends. They were, we love the Spilsburys. However, we don't agree with the positions that she has taken.
Julie:
I just wanted to hear where he was coming from, which I was a little bit shocked at some of his views.
Mónica:
Bob told Julie why he was upset that she voted for a non-discrimination ordinance shortly after taking office in 2021. He mentioned that he'd emailed her and she hadn't responded.
Bob:
I said, "That's where you lost me."
Mónica:
Julie agreed that she probably should have responded to more of those messages, but she'd been brand new on the council and unprepared for the onslaught.
Julie:
I couldn't respond to 1,300 emails. It felt very overwhelming to me.
Mónica:
Bob also told her how the timing of her endorsements for Democrats in the 2024 election had felt like a betrayal coming just a month after her conservative district reelected her to another term on the city council. "It's not personal," he told Julie, but he could see that it felt personal to her.
Julie:
And when he was leaving, he actually said, "Can we hug?" And I'm a hugger, so of course I was like, "I would love to give you a hug." And so we hugged, and it was actually like, I considered it a very sacred experience that proved to me like how this works. And I will give Bob Hathcock so much credit because he was willing to come over and sit on my couch and have a conversation.
Mónica:
For months, Julie had been pleading with people to just come talk to her, tell her their concerns, listen to where she's coming from. Bob was one of only a handful to take her up on that. And what's funny about the meeting is that Julie remembers Bob asking for a hug at the end, but Bob says, "No way."
[00:30:00]
Bob:
She asked for the hug. I wouldn't have had the nerve to ask for it. And from that point, I really realized the human cost here. That's probably the biggest regret that I have, is not reaching out to her earlier. From that point on, things were tougher for me to navigate.
Mónica:
This is Dispatches from the Divide. I'm Mónica Guzmán. We're sharing the stories of ordinary people in extraordinary situations that take an unexpected turn.
There's nothing surprising about a political campaign turning ugly. In a system like ours, where it's winner-take-all and we're conditioned to see the other side as a serious threat to our way of life, people are going to push the limits. Simplistic slogans that go after the competition are often what it takes to capture our limited attention span. And it's easier to play the game if you can keep your opponent at a distance. Because once you know someone personally, it's a lot harder to say and do the harsh stuff that happens in an election. Which is exactly what Bob was about to learn as he left Julie's home that night in August 2025.
The election was two months away and the campaign to recall Julie was kicking into high gear. Practically overnight, signs against Julie popped up all over her Mesa City Council district, especially in her own neighborhood. And some of them were pretty incendiary.
Julie:
So they were all along this whole park right here. They were all over by our post office. I mean, I'm driving to work every day. I'm driving to drop off kids or pick them up and there's a sign that talks about that I put Mesa's daughters in danger. That was the hardest one for me, because I have five daughters and care deeply. I've worked with the youth most of my adult life and care deeply about my daughters and teenagers. And so that all stems from the nondiscrimination ordinance that I voted yes on.
Mónica:
Some of the signs had a distorted photo of Julie to make her look menacing. And Bob Hathcock, who sparked the recall to begin with, was now feeling kind of uncomfortable about things.
Bob:
I didn't agree with some of the attacks and some of the half-truths that were out there, if you will. But our goal was to win. You don't come this far and do all this work to back off at the last minute. So I questioned myself often to myself and to other people. And I just said, you know, I just feel really, really bad about this now that it's actually happening and it's looking good. I just feel really bad. I found myself praying for Julie that she could, you know, deal with it no matter what happened. And yeah, so there's the human side of it that I never took delight in.
Mónica:
And Bob says that that human side came out for him when he was out fixing signs for Julie's opponent.
Bob:
It was a terrible monsoon season. We should say here good monsoon season because we got a lot of moisture. And so we were constantly out fixing signs, bent rebar, torn off zip ties. So just nonstop fixing signs. And a couple of times our signs were right next to Spilsbury signs. And I would just make sure nobody was looking. And then I would take some of my zip ties and fix her signs. And I think I texted her a time or two, "Hey, you've got a sign down at Higley and Baseline or whatever." And just my lame attempt to reach out and try to feel better about what was happening.
Julie:
All you do during a campaign is fix signs. It's the worst, like every night we're driving around. So that was like super sweet that he's out fixing my signs. Then he showed up to our next council meeting and he usually came in with his MAGA friends and they would sit on the second row and they would all glare at me the whole time. And he walked in and sat down and he raised his hand and waved at me. I mean, he could have just smiled, but he actually like raised his hand, which I'm like, people saw him do that. Like he waved at me.
Mónica:
Finally, it's election night, November 4th, 2025. 40% of active voters in Julie's Mesa City Council district participate. That's a huge turnout for an election with just one contest on the ballot. Should Julie Spilsbury be kicked out of office? We'll be right back.
News anchor:
And with election results coming in from across Arizona and the rest of the country. Thanks for joining us for Tuesday night.
Julie:
I'm in a room full of people and the results come through and I did not win.
[00:35:00]
Mónica:
Julie lost by 762 votes out of more than 18,000 cast. Her city council tenure was terminated immediately. She became the first person in the entire 140-year history of Mesa, Arizona to be recalled.
Julie:
I made it through that evening but then went home and cried for 20 hours. You think I'm exaggerating? I couldn't really talk to anyone for several days.
So as church was approaching, I was like, there's no way. Like, there's no way I'm gonna go show up with these people who did this to me, right? Like, this was like, it was just not gonna happen. And I was supposed to play the organ. I was assigned to play the organ that Sunday. And that morning I woke up and I was already crying thinking about going to church.
Mónica:
Something pretty unique about the church Julie goes to is that members are assigned a congregation or ward based on where they live. So Julie's congregation is full of her neighbors, many of whom signed the petition to oust her, put the signs in their yards, posted hurtful things about her online.
Julie:
My dad, like the first thing he said to me was like, you're gonna move, right? And I was like, no, we're not moving. And he's like, I would move. Like, and I've had a lot of people like, you're still gonna go to your church, like after what they did to you, right? I mean, everything in me screams like run. And I couldn't do this on my own.
I don't wanna like come off like I am some amazing person that's so strong. It's just because my heart wants to do it. And it's because God wants us to learn how to get along. And we're gonna have friction and tension with people because we have different views and learning to work through those differences like that it is in that friction and that tension that we actually have all of our rough edges rubbed off. That's how we become more like Jesus Christ is when we learn how to do that. And so every Sunday, still, I have to make a conscious effort to show up and to mingle with people who frankly have hurt me. A few Sundays ago, right before church started, I looked at the program and there was a man speaking that has been so antagonistic towards our family for like six years. So I was just kind of like rolling my eyes. Like I just didn't wanna hear him speak.
Mónica:
Their congregation had been struggling with political disagreement since 2016, really. Who's got which candidate sign in their yard? Who's posting what on social media? No community has been immune. And Julie's husband had written a couple of pointed messages on Facebook opposing Trump over the years. So that's part of the baggage making Julie cringe as this man gets up to the microphone.
Julie:
But as soon as he started speaking, I was just flooded with love for him. And I just kind of like, you know, said a little thank you prayer in my heart. Then the spirit says, now you have to tell him. And I was like, oh yeah, no, I'm not doing that. Like, no, I can't do that. And then there he was like standing right in front of me.
And I just took everything in me and God helped me. And I just like reached out and hugged him and he was totally taken by surprise because we don't talk. So here I am like hugging him. And I just pulled back and I just said, I just want to let you know that when you were speaking, I just felt so much love for you and for your family. And I know things have been really bad between our families for a lot of years. And he said they have, they've been really bad. And he started crying.
And I just said, I just want you to know that I love you and your family. And I'm grateful for everything you guys have done.
And he couldn't really even say anything. My husband kind of like walked up behind me. I think he was completely shocked that I was talking to him. And then he just walked away. So it was just like one of those moments where I'm like, this is how this can work. He still thinks the same way he does politically. I still think the same way I do. Right. Like that's not what this is about. This is not getting people to change their minds. This is getting people to change their hearts.
Okay. So here's my presentation, Beyond Civility: How Conflicts Can Strengthen Our Communities. I'm so happy to be here.
Mónica:
Less than a month after the recall, Julie was on stage at a conference of the National League of Cities speaking to mayors and city council members from across the country.
Julie:
The room was packed. It was standing room only and not, I don't think, because of me or anything, but because of the topic, no one likes this polarization. And we all feel like we're, you know, enemies with everyone, right? Family members aren't speaking to each other because of this. Like we're all dealing with this.
[00:40:00]
Mónica:
Earlier in the day, Governor Spencer Cox, Republican from Utah and Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham, Democrat from New Mexico, were on the main stage talking about how political leaders need to disagree better. That's the name of an initiative Governor Cox started while he was chair of the National Governors Association. It's since grown into an independent nonprofit that showcases leaders who disagree with respect. Quick note, I'm on the advisory board for Disagree Better. So I'm a fan.
Governor (conference clip):
I've always tried to model that behavior to sit with people of a different party of different persuasions and talk about our differences. Because every time I do that, I find that the things we believe in far outweigh the things we disagree about. But sometimes we disagree very passionately. And even in those moments, we're able to find an opportunity to treat each other with respect and understand that we'll probably never come to an agreement, but we'll find other ways to work together.
Mónica:
So the audience for Julie's presentation was primed to hear her talk about bridging political divides. I think it's safe to say they were not ready for how far she was about to take it.
Julie:
Is there something better that we could aim for than civility? I say that there is and here it is.
Mónica:
One word appears on the screen behind her.
Julie:
Are you rolling your eyes at me? I hope no one walks out right now.
Mónica:
It's love. Yep. She tells that room full of politicians that being civil is not enough. They need to love their opponents.
Julie:
We have to do something different than what we're doing. We have to stop the us versus them.
Mónica:
Then she tells them about Bob, how he started the recall and campaigned against her, how sitting together in her living room changed things.
Julie:
In fact, yesterday you sent me a text wishing me good luck on this presentation, which is why I have a picture because I said, "Will you take a picture of me for this presentation?" And he asked if he could put his MAGA hat on. Sometimes you're going to notice that. Is this love? I don't think we're there yet. But we're on our way.
Right as I finished, the whole room just applauded. One of the ladies who works for NLC, she's like, "I've never seen a standing ovation before at NLC." It's a message that resonates with people because it's truth. Like, relationships matter more than anything. How we treat people matters, right? Like, I believe so strongly that kindness and compassion and treating all people with dignity is like, that's all for me. That's it.
Mónica:
Coming up, we invite Bob and Julie to lunch to see their version of love for ourselves. Stick around.
It's 12:30 on a June afternoon in 2026, eight months after the recall election. Bob and Julie have agreed to meet for lunch because we really needed to see this for ourselves. It just seems so unlikely that they'd be friends, you know?
Bob:
Hi, how are you? How are you? How are you doing today? Good. Good. It's fun to see you.
Mónica:
Yeah. They hug. It's a little awkward.
Julie:
We have been able to work through lots of awkwardness.
Mónica:
They're not hanging out all the time or anything, but since the recall election, they do make a point of saying hello when they run into each other. In fact, this taco place that Bob suggested, because it's his favorite, also turns out to be one of Julie's favorites.
Julie:
Okay, this queso is one of my favorite things. That's mine. Thank you so much.
Mónica:
They sit at a table outside and share updates on people they know. Julie's in a book club with Bob's niece. Bob did business with the tree trimming company Julie and her husband owned a while back. Bob asks about Julie's adult kids. Is that Lauren or Lydia?
Julie:
Lydia. Yeah, he's so cute too. He like has tried to learn who all my kids are and what they're doing.
Bob:
I told her I was your cyber stalker.
Julie:
In your very first time when you spoke at the city council, you said that you listened to all my podcast episodes. I'm like, whoa, I don't know if anyone needs that much Julie in their life.
Bob:
I was just really interested in just really trying to understand. Yeah. Just really, before I got too involved, I just wanted to really try and learn everything.
Julie:
Yeah. Yeah.
Bob:
And like I say, I should have, that's when we should have been talking. Yes, we should have been talking much earlier.
Mónica:
Local politics come up. It's still a sore point for Julie that she's no longer on the city council. Bob thinks her replacement is doing a great job, but he doesn't press the issue. They settle on a different local official they're both frustrated with, who seems to stay neutral on the issues to avoid upsetting people.
[00:45:00]
Julie:
On everything.
Bob:
Well, yeah, I went and met with them on the street. People don't know where you stand on anything.
Julie:
He doesn't want to make anyone mad.
Bob:
We need to know regardless of where it's at. We need to know where you stand. We have no clue where you stand. No one does.
Julie:
No. Yeah, it's very frustrating. I'm like, just take a stand on something, on anything.
Bob:
I gave you the same lecture.
Julie:
Because you know what? You just can't make everyone happy.
Mónica:
The irony is not lost on Julie. It was taking stands on issues and endorsing political candidates that got her recalled. And that's made her politically homeless. She'd love to still be serving in political office, but the way things are so polarized right now, she can't run as a Republican or as a Democrat.
Julie:
Something I absolutely love. Because I was willing to speak out. And all the campaign people told me not to. And even my campaign manager literally said to me, Julie, if you do this, like you're doing this to have influence. But if you do this, and you don't have a job, you lose three years of influence. And I'm like, yeah, but guess what? That's why we have the politicians we do. Because no one will speak up. No one will be true to their integrity because they want to keep their job.
Mónica:
It's clear that Bob's kind of biting his tongue at this point. He knows Julie is still processing it all, still hurting. He doesn't want to rub salt in the wound. After about an hour, the plates are picked over and Bob's got a to go box to take home to his wife. Julie mentions that she'd been going through her texts from Bob and noticed that it's mostly been him reaching out to her to stay connected. He nods.
Bob:
Because you're still healing.
Julie:
Well, I am. I'm like still in a lot of pain and sadness from it all. And so my first reaction usually isn't like, let's reach out to someone that helped make this happen to me, you know. But every time you have, I really appreciated it. So, and I do. I mean, I know you share it too. Like sharing this story is powerful. And I have a lot of hope that it will help other people.
Bob:
It can lead to other efforts. Yeah. Thank you for including me.
Julie:
Well, it's funny when people are like, do you think he'll talk to us? I'm like, I think Bob will talk to you because you're a good person. You're a good person. And you're not a mean person.
Mónica:
So it's a pretty cool thing to see that Bob is now part of helping Julie heal and that she's willing to let Bob be part of that. It reminds me of this amazing thing called Return Day in Sussex County, Delaware. Have you heard of it? Since 1812, believe it or not, they've had this tradition where after any big election, they'll have a parade and the winner of every race is at the front of the float and the loser is on the back of the same float. And then the political leaders bury a hatchet. They have an actual hatchet in front of the whole town. Then they have a big party with food and festival activities.
What Sussex County seems to understand is that there's a difference between campaign time and governing time. People get that what we did in campaign time, you know, the thing I said about you and all of that, that was for the campaign. When we bury the hatchet, we're now focused on governing and repairing the ruptures. Campaign time is over and it's time to be a community again. Next —
— courage. We make it easier when we honor it, when we appreciate it. So find someone who did that this week, someone who said or did that surprising thing that you know made an impact. Even the smallest moment counts. Tell them that you saw it, you noticed it, that it inspired you. Then it's your turn to inspire someone else.
Wow. Okay, so we've just come off these stories with our listeners. What did you think of this one? What did you think?
April:
Oh my gosh, this was amazing. I don't know how you found this story. I wouldn't have thought this was possible. Yeah, I'm blown away. I'm super curious, you know, we have our different perspectives. Like, what did you think? Who did you identify with? How did that go for you?
Mónica:
I identified with both Julie and Bob in different places. I was struck by, you know, several things, including how much I admired Bob in particular, with certain choices he made, which is fascinating. And I think —
April:
Really?
Mónica:
I think, well, yeah. Well, tell me more. Maybe we should get into that now.
April:
Yeah, yeah, that's not what I expected you to say. Yeah, tell me. Yeah, I mean, Bob is great, but yeah.
Mónica:
Well, first off, the fact that he first emailed Julie way back when she had cast a vote that he was not happy with, explained that he was not happy. It just gave me that sense of, oh yeah, local politics, staying engaged. There's so many times that I would email my local representative, but I'm too busy. I don't have time. So he's clearly involved. He doesn't get a response from her that sits with him. And then when he felt betrayed that she endorsed Democratic candidates on the Senate race and in the presidential race, he took action and believed that something needed to happen and then gave so much time to it that he, you know, neglected his wife's anniversary. It sounds like they're okay. It does. Given that he ended up doing something that hurt her so much and that was unheard of in 140 years of Mesa history, I was surprised that there was something about the citizen power of it. I'm just gonna take this up. I'm gonna do this thing for my community. So that was one thing I'd bring.
[00:50:00]
April:
Yeah, no, he certainly took action. There was a recall election in my neighborhood last year, I think it was last year. And so we just went through that and it is so much work and people have to be so dedicated.
Mónica:
Exactly.
April:
Yeah.
Mónica:
So that I loved, but there's other choices of his that I really, really liked. I think the big turn in the story is that he chose to meet Julie when Julie put up her post saying how much this had hurt. It was her community. It was people in her church. He took her up on that. That's amazing. That's amazing. And clearly he was, you know, caught and conflicted and he talks about that. He was fixing her lawn signs for her campaign while he was out fixing the others. He was looking for opportunities to reach out to her. It sounded like he regretted so much of the impact on her, but didn't regret the citizen civic action that he felt was right. And that for sure to have separated those two things is fascinating for me.
April:
I agree. It reminds me of — one of the things that I thought was so striking about this is that it's within a community. And one of the things that I found really remarkable in this whole thing, and I don't know what you'll think of this, but I found the presence of faith just really striking. And I think that that's, to me, that's pretty core to the story. It's certainly core to the way Julie tells it. And to me, that's true in a couple of different ways. One of them is this thing about how it's a community, right? It's a church. You don't get to escape these people, you know?
And like, I was thinking about, okay, well, what can I learn from this? Right. And I think it's partly the courage thing that we were just talking about. So it's interesting to me that you mentioned Bob, because I identified more with Julie for some reason, and her choice to like actually show up right after at church to like keep going. I don't know, that sounds so scary to me. And so I think the thing that like I'm going to take away as a challenge kind of to myself is like, all right, the next time somebody in my community hurts me, or something in my community hurts me, show up one more time than is comfortable. You know? I don't know about every week. That's too much to commit to, but just start with showing up one more time than is comfortable. So.
Mónica:
I love that. And there's a connection there between, you know, the community and there's these two characters, one who kind of did the hurting, although it wasn't his intention to hurt the person, and the other who was hurt. Yeah, I love this. Show up one more time than is comfortable to the community that includes the people who hurt you. And then on the other side, I would say in Bob's place, whenever this is you and your life, get close to the people you defeat. The midterms are coming right up. And if you know someone who's on the other side of a race that you care about and they lose and you win, especially if you've been out there banging on doors or whatever, check in on them. Actually check in on them and see how they're doing.
Both these characters, Bob and Julie, why must I say characters? They're people. Both these people benefited, I think, from the kind of close community ties. And you mentioned faith and something about Mesa and all of this. I don't know that they were able to do this. They were able to do those two things.
April:
And I want to say one more thing about faith because, like, to me, the church is about community, right? But it's also about God. And I found it really beautiful the way that Julie would say, like, God wanted me to do this. This is what God put in my heart. And also the Bible is so clear about love your enemies, right?
And the things she points to on that stage, we can do better than tolerance. I love that. Love that. And obviously, I'm familiar with the Christian frame of it, but I don't know. I almost think it's a question that any of us could ask, which is how does your spirituality apply to this, right? What does your spirituality say about reaching out to people who you've defeated or interacting in this kind of context? And could you strengthen that impulse? Anyway, yeah, I think the spirit is a part of this.
[00:55:00]
Mónica:
Yeah. I was struck by Bob talking about how he got to a point where he started praying that Julie would be okay no matter what happened in the recall election. Again, he felt responsible for the pain he was causing her, but not enough to suddenly backpedal on the action that he felt was important, that he never backtracked on. I don't think he ever apologized for, "Hey, you betrayed us politically." I mean, clearly a lot of his community agreed. So that was significant to me.
I think for me, there's a way in which I feel the fabric of the spaces I'm in. And if there is a hurt I know about, especially if I have caused it in any way, even if I didn't intend to cause it, I do carry a sense of responsibility. And I guess my spirituality would want me to repair. So you and I have talked about cycles of rupture and repair, rupture and repair. And I like to think that you don't need a religious tradition to know that it's important to engage in that process to bring repair where you can, that you will carry the hurt in your heart, whether you like to or not.
April:
Well, and I think to me what you're saying sounds like a spiritual thing. And some people will say that's spiritual. Some people will say it's just the right thing to do, like whatever, I don't care. I think that whatever that is, everybody has some code, some ethics, even if it's not a religion, right? It seems to me that that could be a fountain for courage. And like a sort of foundation for that.
Mónica:
Yes. Like there's this — something is broken, you've got to fix it. And is that a foundation for courage? Well, sure, because it'll help you get close where your intellect wants you to stay away. There's that scene where Julie ended up listening to a speaker who had attacked her and her family and ended up hugging him, I think at the end.
April:
Yeah. No, no, she hugged him.
Mónica:
She said she was filled with love for that person. Yeah. Clearly she has been going through it. I mean, imagine, right?
April:
When I think about like courage in this story, I was really struck by her willingness to put on Facebook her agony, like the stuff she's going through in detail, quoting people. She basically like puts her entire heart on her Facebook page and says, "Come talk to me," right? Which is an extremely vulnerable thing to do. And I don't know, I've been thinking about would I do that? Would I have it in me? Oh man, the question of like when you turn toward relationship, when it's been hurtful rather than away. And when you do in fact put all the personal stuff out there and invite engagement, that can go real badly too. And so I don't think I would take away that that's a thing you should always do. And so I was sitting here thinking like, "Well, when is it?" And I came up with two sort of tests and I want to see what you think of these.
I think I noticed her asking on some level, like what's the worst that can happen, right? Like these people are already mad at me and she's already going through it too. So I think asking yourself, what's the worst that can happen and is it worse than what's happening now? And could I handle it? Because it seems to me that what happened to her is that, and I don't want to speak for her of course, but she was suffering so much already that like even if people yelled at her to her face, I bet that would have been better in some way than the silence. And so —
Mónica:
Yes, that's what she craved most is come talk to me. She was ready for that. And what hurt the most was the distance, the distance, the non-engagement.
April:
Yeah. Yeah. So the next time I'm in a circumstance like that, I think I'm going to say like, what is the worst that can happen? Is it worse than what's happening right now? And could I handle it? Could I handle it?
Mónica:
Yeah. Because that's a question about capacity. I really love that question. It's hard to know. It does seem like this is probably one of the most difficult things she's ever had to go through. Absolutely. Particularly tough then because the question, can I handle it if I've never been through anything like this before is a mystery. You're not even sure. So let me ask you that question. How do you query your capacity in a situation that is overwhelming and that you've not faced before?
April:
I think for me, personally, the faith part comes back in. And again, I feel like I say that and it connotes different things to different people. What I really mean is I feel like there's something greater than me and that I can trust it. That doesn't mean I'm not going to get super hurt, but the question is, do I think I can probably do this with God's help slash with prayer? Do I think that, yeah, it'll hurt, but not so badly that I'll never recover? So I think there is some leap of faith or a trust or a, you know.
[01:00:00]
Mónica:
Yeah. And it sounds to me like faith in the way you're talking about gives you access to these resources outside yourself. And if you believe those resources are there, you can really lean on them. As a person of not faith, I thought of that moment where Bob was praying for Julie as a — to me, prayer in the kind of secular sense is the focus of intention. So if you're praying, you are stating what you desire, what you hope for, who you're caring about. You're literally just telling yourself about them. You're reminding yourself in your busy life about these people and that you care. And so there's Bob fixing his own campaign signs, looking at Julie's signs, noticing they're broken. And he had prayed for her that morning, so he's focused his intention. I care for this woman. I'm going to change. I'm going to fix her. And that's not to dismiss the power of faith in any way. No, no, no, no. It's just where we think the resources are, where they come from, and all of that.
April:
Yeah. A couple of things you've said have made it clear that somehow Bob did both of these things, right? He both cared about her and he was loyal to his sense of political justice too. Can you tell me more about how you understood that? And I know you've really admired Bob. Yeah. Tell me about that.
Mónica:
For that reason, in some ways they both were able to do this, but particularly Bob, throughout, I think, maintained the strength of his conviction that as a public servant, Julie failed him and deserved to be recalled from office. And he was able to care for her and be a member of a community that is working on repair while also taking a strong civic action and leading his community who agreed with him on this particular thing. So the strategy, I think, from this observation and this theme pulled out of the story is wherever we are in our civic life, can we try to never pretend that the world where we get things done is the only world that matters? You know, this is just business. Don't take it personally.
I had to do this. You know my hands were tied. You know, I'm going to be strong. this is what I believe and you just sit down, you know? Right. Yes. Okay. There's the world of rational collaborative action. Yes. And there's the world of humans who hurt and are hurt and need to take care of each other. And Bob represents somebody who was able to do both.
April:
He totally does.
Mónica:
And not back down just because it hurt Julie.
April:
Right. Well, and I think that's like, it is, it's totally awesome. And I feel like that's in some ways the core of everything we talk about, right? How do you hold your political views with passion and force and fight for what you think is right and also love your neighbor, actually, because it's so hard to do both. And yeah, that's probably the most inspiring thing to me about this whole thing.
Mónica:
So agreed, agreed. Lots of lessons for how we can tighten our bonds, how we can stay human even in the heat of really awful political things and ruptures everywhere and disagreements that are crazy. So yeah, big thanks to Julie and Bob and of course the whole team at BYU Radio that —
