'Can you love me if you don't accept who I love?'
- Jul 3
- 51 min read
Anne Marie Denman was the “angel” of the family: obedient, attentive, with plans to become a nun. When she came out as gay to her conservative Catholic parents, a deep rupture drove them apart.
How do you stay close to people who won’t share your worldview? Can love exist while someone feels rejected? And can you invest in the relationship without condoning the other’s convictions? These are some of the questions Anne Marie and her mother, Sharon, wrestled with over the years, as they fought to protect a connection that was threatened by their differences.
Mother and daughter join Mónica for an intimate and vulnerable conversation about the ups and downs of that journey — and what it takes to stay connected without demanding agreement.
Credits
Host & Executive Producer: Mónica Guzmán
Senior Producer: Tracy Egbas
Producer: Jessica Jones
Associate Producer & Graphic Designer: Fredo Viola
Contributors: April Lawson & Travis Tripodi
Artist in Residence: Gangstagrass
A production of Reclaim Curiosity
Distribution Partners: KUOW, Braver Angels, and Deseret News
Financial Supporter: M.J. Murdock Charitable Trust
Key Topics & Quotes
1. Why they decided to share their story
Mónica opens by asking Anne Marie and Sharon what moved them to share their story publicly. Anne Marie explains that she is surrounded by friends who cannot imagine anyone who supports Trump as being anything other than a monster — and she knows that simply isn’t true. Sharon describes a dinner party the night before where a woman was astonished to hear that two people so different from each other could still be close, and left feeling hopeful.
Anne Marie:
I see this reality that just does not line up with what is portrayed. And so I think I feel a bit of a sense of obligation, when asked, to do my best to share that perspective.
Sharon:
It was so beautiful — the love and the respect and the honor she showed to her dad, because this is very important to her.
2. Growing up in an unusual family
Sharon and Anne Marie paint a picture of a large, peripatetic family — seven children, 19 homes over 58 years, no television, Saturday dinners for 20, and an Amish table that extended to fit them all. They describe the parade of priests, drug-addicted families, and strangers who moved in and became family, and the made-up games — spitballs into the water pitcher, blow the ping pong ball — that filled the end of every Saturday night. The family, Sharon says, was what they carried with them.
Sharon:
The one thing consistent with our moves — where we moved, when we moved — is that life looked pretty much the same wherever we got to. It wasn’t just in a home; it was like we took it with us.
Anne Marie:
These were my best friends. Because we moved so much, because I was homeschooled through sixth grade, these were my best friends.
3. How faith and life shaped their different worldviews
Sharon traces her worldview to a mother who tempered strict Catholicism with a quieter message — “don’t be so black and white” — and to her late husband Bob, a converted attorney who built their life around Catholic community. Anne Marie describes thinking at 13 she would become a nun, and then the slow, hard reckoning that followed when she realized she was attracted to women. Discovering she was gay didn’t just upend one belief; it began the unraveling of the entire framework she had inherited.
Anne Marie:
Despite all of my attempts to disavow it, to ignore it, for years trying to work through it, I finally came to the understanding that it was a really good and healthy part of who I was.
Anne Marie:
When I came to that recognition and understanding and acceptance, and realizing that the Catholic Church was wrong in this aspect — and the church also taught that it was infallible on these matters — it started the unraveling.
4. Coming out and a family in crisis
Sharon found out Anne Marie was gay not through a conversation but through items in Anne Marie’s car. Her first response was a letter quoting scripture and telling Anne Marie how wrong this was. Anne Marie called back in tears. Sharon called her son Jonathan, a priest, who told her: “Mom, we don’t want to lose her. She needs your love.” Anne Marie’s father, Bob, told her he wouldn’t love her the same way. And yet — Anne Marie says — she never once doubted that they loved her.
Sharon:
He said, “Mom, we don’t want to lose her. She needs your love.”
Anne Marie:
I think even in the midst of all of this, in the midst of my mom’s response, my dad’s response, my family’s — I don’t think I ever once questioned whether they loved me.
5. Breakfast conversations that changed everything
After the rupture — Anne Marie couldn’t move back home as planned — Sharon began driving to Cleveland for weekly breakfasts at the DoubleTree. Both were afraid. Anne Marie worried she would be asked to change. Sharon was being challenged too. Once Anne Marie walked out; Sharon stayed at the table until she came back. They never reached agreement, but Sharon says that wasn’t the point: what mattered was that they kept showing up.
Sharon:
I think what happened to me is just I had to learn another level of love.
Anne Marie:
There was something in me that said it was worth trying to keep some level of connection, even though the pain of that question — maybe I am so wrong — that it was worth that pain, that question, to hold space for those moments.
6. Learning to love without agreement
Sharon shares two moments that marked turning points. The first: driving to meet Anne Marie’s girlfriend against Bob’s explicit wishes, feeling Christ walking beside her into the restaurant, and loving this woman with the love God had for her. The second: secretly witnessing Anne Marie’s civil wedding to Leanne — not telling Bob she was going, but refusing to let her daughter stand there without family. Sharon still calls both decisions ones she would make again without hesitation.
Sharon:
I went and I witnessed their wedding, and I signed the book about their promise to love each other, and I was the witness.
Sharon:
I would do it over and over and over again, because I think God is love and perfect love, and that trumps everything in my mind.
7. Why Anne Marie thanked her father for books she threw away
Mónica asks Anne Marie why she thanked Bob every time he gave her books on how not to be gay — and then threw them away. Anne Marie describes her image of truth as a big pizza pie: everyone has a sliver of experience, and from that sliver draws conclusions about the whole. She could see that her father had wisdom and that his conclusions about her were drawn from genuine care — even if they were wrong. She didn’t need to correct him out loud. Later, they had full-throated rational debates at Wally Waffles that they both savored.
Anne Marie:
I think I have this sort of image of the world or of reality of this really big, complex truth. This is overly simplistic, but — a big pizza pie, and we all have our sliver of experience. And from that sliver of experience, we draw conclusions about the whole.
Anne Marie:
I did not have to tell my dad that I enjoyed throwing them away. It was important to him to feel some level of being able to — that was his way to try to love me.
8. How to rebuild trust: start with the person, not the position
Anne Marie and Sharon close with what they most want to pass on. Anne Marie’s advice: stop trying to win the intellectual debate, and instead ask, “Tell me why this matters to you.” Getting to the “why” surfaces values — and people’s values turn out to be much less different than their positions. Sharon shares the story of a woman dying of cancer she met on a cruise, whose body shook with rage at a political figure on TV. Seeing that, Sharon says, she finally understood. Then Melánia came on and they both liked what she said. That was enough.
Anne Marie:
I think if you can get to the why, it gets to the values. And I think we’re just not as different as we think.
Sharon:
I think we fell in love with each other again as adults. Maybe it wasn’t because we could answer each other’s questions. I think we were just busy trying to love each other and figure out how to love each other, and I think we just fell in love with each other.
Links & References
Call to Action
• Submit a question: If you’ve been impacted or taken action because of the podcast, let us know. Or if you found yourself mulling over something, turn it into a question and share it with us. You can send us a quick email at abraverway@reclaimcuriosity.com
• Subscribe: If you like what you’ve heard, hit subscribe, and leave us a 5-star review!
• Share this episode: reclaimcuriosity.com/post/a-braver-way-episode-22
• Join our text line: Text “brave” to 206-926-9955 to join.
Transcript
Sharon Morris:
Bob would give her books on how not to be gay. Book after book after book and each time she just thanked him.
Mónica Guzmán:
Wow.
Sharon:
She threw them away she thanked him and she never told him she threw them away but she thanked him and he kept on giving her more
Mónica:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to A Braver Way. I'm Mónica Guzmán, your guide across the divide, and I can't believe we are bringing this conversation to you today. I also feel incredibly fortunate to have found the people you're about to meet. We're gonna talk to a mother and daughter who have been through it, and boy, do they have a story to share. This is Sharon Morris and Anne Marie Denman. Sharon lives in Ohio. She is politically conservative and Catholic, or Catholic-ish, as she likes to say. Her daughter, Anne Marie, is in Minnesota. She is on the liberal side of politics, and she is gay. So I probably don't have to spell out the tensions that they have faced, and boy, have they faced them. You know, this show is called A Braver Way. We try to look for courage where it shows up and can teach us something, and it always comes from-- it can come from so many different directions. The question that I wanted to bring to Sharon and Anne Marie is a big one. There's many ways to slice it up and focus on it, but basically it's this: When the thing that divides you cuts bone-deep to the point that it threatens to uproot you from your identity or your convictions, how in the world do you build the safety or trust or capacity to talk about those things with someone you really care about? I just came off this conversation. It's spinning in my heart. It's sparking in my brain. I don't know what more to say about it, except maybe that it's emotional, it's beautiful, it's powerful, it's emotional and vulnerable. So thank you again to Sharon and Anne Marie for sharing what they did today. And without further ado, here's our conversation. Hello. Hi, Anne Marie, and hi, Sharon, and thank you, thank you for being here and for even wanting to share your story and what you've been through and how you see, you know, conversations these days. So, how are you guys?
Sharon:
Good, Thank you.
Mónica:
Good. Yeah. Of course. So, let me, let me go back and kind of summarize a little bit of what we hope to do here today. So, you all know the work that I'm steeped in is all about how people see each other across big divides, and the two of you have a history of doing that with each other in some really interesting ways that have taught you a lot. And my hope is that other people can learn from what you all have faced together and what you've experienced together. So, let's start here. This is about you as a family. Why have you decided to share your story today? And maybe let's start with, Anne Marie.
Anne Marie Denman:
It's a great question, and I've been thinking about it ever since we said yes. I think for me, I often am surrounded by a lot of my friends who are, would sort of identify on the more liberal side of things, and who couldn't imagine anyone who could identify or vote for Trump, or could, be okay with Trump, or anyone who, thought he might be okay, or anyone who followed him as being anything other than a monster. And I just know that not to be true. And so I know these individuals who are my friends who are really good humans, and I also know so many of my family and those who identify on the more conservative side of the political And religious spectrum who I also know to be really good humans. And so I see this reality that just does not line up with how a lot of, what is portrayed. And so I think I feel a bit of a sense of obligation,
Mónica:
Hmm.
Anne Marie:
I guess when asked to share that perspective, to do my best to share that perspective.
Mónica:
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. Sharon, how about you?
Sharon:
Well, there-- I have one song I really like. Anne Marie knows this. Only one I know how to sing. It's "Somewhere Over the Rainbow," right? So do you think I'm gonna sing it, Anne Marie? No. Maybe
Anne Marie:
Oh, God. We
Sharon:
A few words.
Anne Marie:
Poor singing voices in our family.
Sharon:
The colors of the r-- no, I don't, I can't get the tune without somebody in the background. But I'm gonna read you the words. "The colors of the rainbow, so pretty in the sky, are also on the faces of people passing by. I see friends shaking hands, and they're really saying, 'I love you.'" And when I see the divide, it's like there's gotta be a way. There's gotta be a way. And I think if we can look at people and see the rainbows in the sky on their faces, that they're different than us but there's, there can be love that comes between us. There can be a connection. And I believe that and I've seen it with Anne Marie and I. And last night I went to a gourmet dinner. I had no idea I was gonna have something to say from the dinner but, there were women that I-- three women I didn't know, two women I did know. And, I don't know, they were just being introduced to me and I-- Somehow the topic of this morning's discussion came up about the political divide. And one woman said, "Oh, it's just been awful in our family. We're very liberal. My husband's very liberal. And we used to have wonderful dinners with our friends and now we don't have them
Mónica:
Hmm.
Sharon:
It's a real loss." And then I was talking about Anne Marie and I and, kind of went into that and how we had even some differences politically and one woman turned to me and she said, "Oh, you don't like, you don't take, you don't believe in Trump, do you?" I said,
Mónica:
Wow. Hmm.
Sharon:
"But you don't, you don't believe him anymore though. You don't, wouldn't vote for him again, would you?" I said, "Well, it's complicated. It's complicated. It's not that simple to say. It's complicated." But then I talked more about Anne Marie and I and about her dad and how there are really big differences and I talked about how magnanimous, I don't know if that's the right word,
Mónica:
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, I think you got
Sharon:
Yeah Anne Marie was towards her dad. How Bob would give her books on how not to be gay. Oh, I didn't say that. Yeah, so anyway, books on how
Mónica:
We'll get to more of that, but Yeah, go for it.
Sharon:
And yes, it's accurate. And so book after book after book and each time she just thanked him.
Mónica:
Wow.
Sharon:
She threw them away she thanked him and she never told him she threw them away but she thanked him and he kept on giving her more. It was so beautiful though, the love and the respect and the honor she showed to her dad, because this is very important to her. So anyway, we just had a wonderful discussion, and one woman I know left feeling more hopeful. You know, just hopeful for what could happen. And I know I made a really good friend last night. I felt a real connection between us. So that was just kind of one little thing. And I had to be care-- I wasn't really careful, but I really didn't wanna get into Trump or not Trump, but I wasn't afraid to mention his name or to,
Mónica:
Yeah, or to be honest about, you know, where you stand if people are coming at you with some disbelief and things like that. Even that can take a good bit of courage in some places out there, for sure. Wow. So yeah, you're both talking about how you are aware that your example represents a kind of exception and maybe something that can give people hope, that can give people a counter, you know, example to what, to what seems to be the norm out there, at least in the discourse. So tell us about your family. Obviously you're mother and daughter, but there are other characters in this show. You know, where did you grow up? Who's around you? Give us, paint us a picture of your family.
Sharon:
I don't know if you have it. So this is-- these are our seven children, and, they all...
Mónica:
Through and name them real quick for the folks on the
Sharon:
Yes.
Mónica:
Let's see.
Sharon:
I'm not good. Anne Marie.
Mónica:
.
Anne Marie:
No, that's Christine. Oh, do you want me to name them?
Sharon:
You name them. 'cause I can't. I'm looking at it reversed. I really do know their names.
Anne Marie:
I know, but it's hard backward. So it's Christine, Mary Hope, Bobby, Joy, Dad, Mom, me, Anne-Marie, Joe, Bobby. And I am second from youngest, and I'm the baby girl, so definitely the most loved. Right? Is that, is that... I think that's the...
Sharon:
Anne Marie, I'm glad you feel That way. I'm really happy you feel that way.
Anne Marie:
Or I was until I came out. That's probably... No, I'm joking.
Sharon:
No. But this was Bob's 90th birthday, and everybody came, and there's so many differences in our children. Well, there's a... Well, I don't know if you wanna talk politically. That's just our family. Okay.
Mónica:
Tell us about your family a little bit too.
Anne Marie:
Sure. So, I'm married to Leanne, And have two kids, a four-year-old and an almost three-year-old.
Mónica:
.
Anne Marie:
Levi and Alina, we are in it. And we started our family a little bit older, so we are completely exhausted all the time. But it's a ton of fun. Wouldn't change it for the world. And we are, part of, you know, this broader ecosystem that mom and dad started. So our kids make up, I think, number 25 and 26 of the grandkids. So big sort of extended family on the Moore side of the family. And then on Leanne's side, you know, she has, her mom, who's still living, her dad who's passed, and brother and his fiancée and family. And so a slightly smaller side of the family there, and they've, come from a, you know, slightly different background there.
Mónica:
So tell us what-- I mean, we've already seen something of a little bit of singing, a little bit of music. You know, we've heard about some of these shared experiences, but what's, what's something that comes to mind as something that you tend to do together or even as you were growing up? Like, what kinds of experiences connect you as a family?
Anne Marie:
Oh my gosh, playing games. Right, we would always play, and made-up games usually. So there was no TV, no TV growing up at all. Very religious, sort of not much secular involvement. That was really important. A lot of moving houses. I think we lived in, for me, 17 houses in the first 18 years of my life. Mom, how many, how many for you and Dad?
Sharon:
19? Houses altogether, but that was over 58 years.
Mónica:
Okay.
Sharon:
Traveled
Anne Marie:
Got a lot of them. Yeah.
Mónica:
.
Sharon:
Of them.
Anne Marie:
All right. And I think, Mom, you and Dad really followed what you thought, like following what you felt called by God to do, and so moved around a lot to follow
Sharon:
Right.
Anne Marie:
That, just, but, and everything else was sort of a, like had a lot of fun
Mónica:
Yeah.
Anne Marie:
Making up all sorts of games. I mean, I think, I think probably our siblings felt a mixed range of what was fun, what wasn't, depending on the age and moment, right? I don't know. What do you think, Mom?
Sharon:
Well, the one thing consistent that with our moves, where we moved, when we moved, is that life looks pretty much the same wherever we got. So it wasn't like just in a home. It was like we took it with us. So we had dinners every night together. Every night together. And then we had Saturday night, we would have about 20 people over for dinner. And, we had a lot...
Mónica:
Did I heard that right, 20 people?
Sharon:
We bought an Amish table that extended really long and
Anne Marie:
Leaves.
Sharon:
Yeah. And, so but that was like every week or every other week sometime. And,
Mónica:
To what you said was the calling that your dad felt?
Sharon:
A sense of community,
Mónica:
Mm.
Sharon:
And that's... So and what we did too, it might not sound like a lot of fun, but it was something of our bonding together because we had time together. So we did a division of roles, right, Anne? So the girls would clean the house, let's say, and then for Saturday night dinner, make all the food. We made bread. We cooked the meal together, set the table together, and we spent a lot of time together. So on Saturdays, we-- Bob and I really worked to find chores for them. So, you know, like we used to meet every week and figure out what we could do. So then they're free after their four hours of chores in the morning.
Anne Marie:
Think it was six.
Sharon:
It could have been let's say five, Anne Marie.
Anne Marie:
Okay, well, what's
Sharon:
I don't think it was six. It
Mónica:
And this is seven total kids, all with a job to do, and these dinners were about gathering community. Who-- where did you find folks to invite? Who were they?
Sharon:
Well, we had-- Well, it depended. A lot of people were from, like, our prayer group that we were in, and then Bob always found other people. He just, on the road, people we had move in with us. What do you think, Anne Marie? Where did they come from?
Anne Marie:
Oh, you were always part of some sort of religious community throughout the years. And so you would have single people live with us. We would have other families that were part of those communities come stay with us, folks who were struggling that would come stay with us. We were never short on people to come
Mónica:
So this was a parade of people throughout your youth coming in and joining you at the table. That's amazing. This is such a unique experience as a family. I'm really struck by it.
Sharon:
And like, I remember we had this priest come live with us once. I think he was trying to discover his vocation, whether he'd keep it or not. And Bob gave him the job of coming to the table with a joke every night to kinda lighten him up a little bit. So, it was kind of fun. And then we-- Yeah. But we always had interesting discussions. The kids didn't always like the discussions, but Bob always would have a topic that we would talk about.
Mónica:
Oh, interesting.
Anne Marie:
I remember we would play games at the end of Saturdays. We would, like, roll up napkins and throw them into the water pitcher in the middle of the table. And, like, we would split up the table, and that would be the game. Or we would get an orange and, like, split up in teams and who could get the orange closest to the wall without touching. So, like, every Saturday night, like, that was...
Sharon:
And, no matter who was there, whether they were fancy people or not fancy people, they did the same thing. They made their little spitballs and threw them in the middle. But we'd laugh so much. Or the ping pong table, we played blow the ping pong ball across the table, and it was so much fun. We had, like, teams of six and...
Mónica:
Wow. I, yeah, I love this image. It's adults and kids.
Sharon:
Yes, it was. It was really nice. Really nice. Yeah.
Mónica:
Amazing. Well, ha, I've just got, just got all these images of quite the weekends, at your place. That's amazing. And all the different homes that you lived in and all the different communities I guess you got to build over and over and over again. So let's, let's shift to some of the things that had... That were contrasts in you, in your family. And I love this question. I think this question does a lot of, a lot of work with a lot of folks sometimes, but here it is. What life experiences have led you to your distinct perspectives on politics and the world? What comes up for you? And whoever wants to go first.
Sharon:
I'll go first, Dan. It looks like you want me to. Well, I think for Bob and I-- Well, growing up, I grew up in a very strong Catholic family, but my mother was a little bit, not as straight Catholic as Catholics were. She was very Catholic, but not as straight, and I think I get some of that from her. But, like, when she'd say, " Sharon-" You don't have to pray a whole rosary. God hears you with just one Hail Mary. And then we would talk about pro-life issues, which she had a little broader mind on that. She was quietly passing some things on to us about looking at the fuller picture of things.
Mónica:
How would she do that? How was it quiet?
Sharon:
Because she wasn't in your face about it, she would just kind of put it out there, kind of like that Hail Mary thing. And like she'd say... Would always be preaching to her
Mónica:
Hmm.
Sharon:
We got older, and she'd be saying, "But Sharon, there's another way. You know, there's just some people are different than what you're talking about."
Mónica:
Oh, so when you say that you would preach to her, do you mean that you
Sharon:
Trying to get
Mónica:
From a religious perspective, and then she would complicate things back to you?
Sharon:
Yes, and she would kind of try to show us that don't be so black and white. And then I married Bob, and I was really black and white from there, right? Because Bob was very... It was his personality, it was his age, his background, and... But I think I picked up more of my mother. That was a gift to me. So, anyway, let's see, what else? And then so we just had a very strong Catholic... I left the church when I was in college to explore other churches, other faiths, and then I eventually came back to the Catholic Church. And, Bob had a conversion experience himself at one point, and, he was an attorney, and someone had him come on a weekend, and that really made his heart change from pursuing the law for, to pursuing Christ and what we would do with our lives. And we met each other, and that's how. So I would think most of the people we hung around with then were conservative people.
Mónica:
. . Hmm. Hmm. .
Sharon:
I think maybe because of, things like pro-life or, I don't know what else, just all the other conservative things that come with it seems. So very strong place like that. So Anne Marie really kind of rocked the boat a little bit.
Mónica:
Well, maybe that's the perfect segue. Anne Marie, do you wanna talk about what life experiences led you to your own political perspectives on the world?
Anne Marie:
Sure. I think, you know, you know, growing up in the way we described, I actually... I thought... I really followed that way and I was-- I really followed sort of the Catholic teaching. At age 13, I thought I was gonna become a nun. It-- I really saw it that black and white, and then, sort of towards the end of college and then shortly after college, I started realizing that I was attracted to women, and it... And because that was in such contradiction to the Catholic Church's teaching that was objectively disordered and against the natural law, and despite all of my attempts to disavow it, to, ignore it, for years trying to work through it, finally came to the understanding that it was a really good and healthy part of who I was. And when I came to that recognition and understanding and acceptance and realizing that the Catholic Church was wrong in this way, or, in this aspect, and that the church also taught that it was infallible on these matters, that those... It started the unraveling to me of questioning of, well, if this... From my lived experience, if this was wrong, I started sort of questioning, well... I had not really questioned not just the Catholic teachings on this, but all that kinda came along with it, the political ramifications, the conservative Republican ramifications, that sort of, that whole kind of, down the road. And frankly, I think I probably did a bit of a swing and sort of over-identify... Sorry, over-identified sort of well Then I must be this, right? I must be... And it took a while for me to sort of really start working through not just, okay, now I'm, now I'm flipped, but really what do I believe, what do I think, and come to a, no, there are some things about what I learned growing up that actually still resonate with me, both politically, religiously. For example, I still deeply believe that individuals are in the best position to make decisions about themselves if it impacts them, right? So I really, from a political perspective, deeply like to look for policies that if it impacts an individual, give the power to the individual to make that decision if, so if it, if it impacts a state.
Mónica:
Your upbringing in a, in a more conservative,
Anne Marie:
Of a it's, it's sort of, it sort of can translate to smaller federal government, which actually, and actually what some of what's happened with Trump and what actually seems to be a fairly liberal reflection of concentration of federal power has actually drawn out what seems like a more conservative bend in some of my political leanings, which is wanting smaller government in some ways or smaller concentration of power. But it's, it's... But for a long time, I, anything that felt, that had a bend of conservativism or a bend of anything that had any tie to that religious upbringing, like I wanted to reject because it felt like... But I think over the years, as I've become more secure in my sense of my own identity and not feeling a defensiveness about who I am, I've been able to have a more nuanced willingness to pick and choose and really try to have a more, sort of critical analysis about both from a political and religious or kind of spiritual perspective about my belief system. But certainly, very different in many ways from many in my family.
Mónica:
Yeah. Sharon, I'm curious, is there anything that you felt drawn to or pushed off of in your story as you went through all these, you know, life changes and met your husband and moved around and had your children and saw the people that they became? What's been that story for you in terms of your own kind of values and where you, where you sense affinity and kind of rejection?
Sharon:
Well, I just loved our whole family life. I loved it. And, I was thinking of all the different people that we had, like, that... I think of, remember Don French, Anne Marie, you know him well. Like my husband met him at a bar too and talked to him, and his daughter had tried to commit suicide. His son was struggling with it as well, and of course, Bob brought him to our home, and for years, we-- he was part of our family. But Bob didn't really try to change him. He really just loved Don French, and we all did, and we became family to him. So I think we were thrust into being with many people different from us. We had a drug addict family move in with us with their four children, and he had just gotten out of rehabilitation. I don't remember seeing us trying to preach to them so much. It's just having them part of our life and feeling this sense of family and trying to regroup as a family together. And, so I think we've seen a lot of different things in our life, and they left us opening in a certain way not to judging everybody. But it-- the black and white was like if we got into a discussion with somebody, we'd be pretty clear of our stances on where we thought in life. It's changed a little bit for me. Again, Anne Marie helped me because we-- I did not understand this change for her, you know? Our... And I don't know if you want me to get into it yet, but we would-- you could just tell me, Mónica, if you want me to go, not to go off on this.
Mónica:
Yeah, if we wanna go to that piece. I think where I was going to go is asking what's been hardest for you to understand about each other's perspectives, and I think that's, that's the, that's the knock on the door that you're,
Sharon:
Okay.
Mónica:
You're seeing. So... And I'm seeing nods from Anne-Marie, so maybe this is the time to plunge into that period.
Sharon:
Okay.
Mónica:
Yeah, how do you wanna unfold that for us,
Sharon:
Well, when Anne Marie-- When I found out that Anne Marie was gay, a gay person, I don't know how to say it, yeah, just living differently than we thought that she was gonna be living. I mean, she had guys friends all around her all the time, and, it was really A surprise. And what I did is what so many parents do because we don't get it. We don't understand it. And, I wrote her and just quoted scripture to her
Mónica:
Hmm.
Sharon:
And, you know, basically said how wrong this was. And I remember Anne Marie calling me back and just bawling, crying. She was devastated by my reaction, and I really didn't know what to do. And I called our son Jonathan 'cause... Well, I wasn't gonna call Bob because I didn't wanna go there with it yet, right? And I called our son Jonathan, who is a priest, and
Mónica:
So you told, by the way, Marie, you told your mom first?
Anne Marie:
She found out.
Sharon:
I found out.
Mónica:
Out. Okay.
Sharon:
And I scolded her. I don't know what else. We won't go into all of that. Go ahead. You can say
Anne Marie:
It became clear... Yeah, she had found some things in my car that made it obvious that I was gay, and she called me, and, I wasn't ready to come out. But it, honestly, it was, it was probably a gift,
Sharon:
Yeah.
Anne Marie:
Because I don't... Yeah. So it was a surprise, but... Yeah. It was what it was. So yeah, go ahead, Mom.
Sharon:
So I called Jonathan and I told him how, what I wrote her and how devastated she was. And he said, "Mom, we don't want to lose her. She needs your love." And, so I tried coming back and loving you and, I don't know how well I did on that.
Mónica:
How well did she do on that, Anne Marie
Anne Marie:
Well, listen, I think, I think... Think the whole experience will always be painful,
Sharon:
Wow.
Anne Marie:
Right? And it's, it's... And I also have... I mean, listen, my dad, when he found out, a-and I, and I paused whether to even say this, but I mean, he told me he wouldn't love me the same way, right? And I say that with also You know, recently he passed away and I was one of the ones who gave his eulogy, and I, and I said, "He's one of the best people I know." And that is also true. And so, like, I say that, and that holds true. And so I think, I think, like, the reality is that... And I, and I've also thought a lot about if my kids come to me with something that I don't understand, and that I worry is harmful to them, which I know that's what my parents deeply believed maybe so, and my family deeply believed it was harmful to me because that's what the church said, and says still, that I don't... I understand. I can, I can understand and I also know that there's probably a pain and a hurt that will probably never be
Mónica:
Mm.
Anne Marie:
Fully healed, right? And that just is. And I don't think, and I don't put that... I don't even put that on Mom or Dad or my family. It just is. Because I think it's an experience of not being trusted as a person, right? Of my of my family seeing me, and at least me experience as me not being, not believing what I was saying, that they're, that I must have been wrong. And at the same time, I hold space that, I mean, even, like, it took me years to reconcile it with myself, right?
Mónica:
.
Anne Marie:
When I, when I realized I was attracted to women, I doubled down on dating guys. Like, as if there's any chance that I'm not really gay. Like, if there's any chance I'm even just a little bit straight, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna find that. Like, that was my response. So, like, I can, I can both hold space that, and the implications of that. And so all of that, it... But just going back to the question of, like, why we're here and why I think we've been able to develop this relationship and develop this relationship to date is I think even in the midst of all of this, in the midst of my mom's response, my dad's response, my family's, I don't think I ever once questioned whether they loved me. Wow. How? I, can I dig into that a little bit?
Mónica:
You were talking about not being trusted after having kind of struggled and clearly, and it's not a parade for you. Like, it's not super, you know... It's, it's a struggle, but to not be trusted and to not, to not question love. I know a lot of families who would link those two together. " If you can't trust me, if you can't accept me, then that's it, and we need to end this now," kind of a thing. There's, there's a lot of that going on out there, and what you two are demonstrating is something different from that. And Sharon, happy to hear from you on this too. I mean, you've been through a lifetime of this particular struggle. How is-- How was that not in doubt? How did you know? How did you demonstrate it, Sharon? How did you know?
Sharon:
How did I know what? That I...
Mónica:
Well, yeah, both, you know, how did you know, Anne-Marie, that was not to be placed in doubt? And then
Sharon:
Oh. Oh,
Mónica:
You do to demonstrate that should not be placed in doubt? Your son told you know, "We
Sharon:
That was such a gift that Jonathan told me, that she needed to be loved. She needed to know love. Because he was a priest. He was representing the Catholic Church, and he
Mónica:
Mm. .
Sharon:
Basically speaking about what I did for Anne Marie in writing that letter, thinking I knew the truth, and this truth pertains to her and it-- for everyone. And his saying that to me didn't just have a repercussion for my beginning to work with Anne Marie to figure out how we are together anew, but it has affected that way with me and mankind, basically. That
Mónica:
Mankind
Sharon:
Well, I mean universally. Like, I'll, I'll just give you an, a little example. There's a, that how it has... This is kind of jumping over our progress of how we got to unite at a deeper level. But it has repercussions. Like, there's, in our community here in Westwood Village, there's, a man, who is gay and is a gay person and, you know, I really liked him a lot, and we were discussing one night at our potluck dinner just about Easter. And he explained to me just how much he loved the Holy Thursday services, and we shared our faith so deeply. It was really a special moment in time. And In the church, and this is why Emery, when we had been talking one time like I'm Catholic-ish, there's some issues in my viewpoint right now because then this young man, I just-- I'm not saying his name, but he was going to church where I go to church and going to daily mass, and the priest eventually let him, you know, had him do some readings, and he goes to communion. And in the church, that would... And among, I'd say a lot of our friends, they would say, "You can't do that if you're gay." You know, "You can't, receive communion or you can't be a minister in that way." And there's nothing in me that isn't very happy that he is doing all of that. I know his faith. I know where he is. He's probably a better Catholic than most Catholics are. He has very strong love of God and anyway, so it has changed me universally in the sense of not just making judgments about people, even though in our family we didn't. But when you get into the nitty-gritties of life, whether it's black and white or whatever, I think it's really made a difference for me and a hunger to love better.
Mónica:
Wow.
Sharon:
But Emery and I, we started to meet. Emery was a lawyer and moved to Cleveland, so we're only about a half hour away, and we started to get together and meet every other week. Was it every week or every other week? Whatever it was for a long time.
Mónica:
And this was after, this was after you had come out, after there had been... W-w-was there... I mean, it sounds like there was a rupture. How long before you could meet?
Sharon:
It wasn't too long after that, was it, Ann?
Anne Marie:
It's a little blurry. I think I remember that I was supposed to live with you all when I came back,
Sharon:
Oh, okay.
Anne Marie:
That, was no longer on the table, so I quickly found an alternative place.
Mónica:
That was no longer on the table?
Anne Marie:
Yeah. I can't remember if it was... I think it just became obvious that was not... Be-because I was coming back, studying for the bar exam and, starting at a law firm in Ohio from DC. And so I remember quickly having to find a place. But it was just so ruptured at that point. It was obvious it was, it was not gonna be a good situation. So I don't remember exactly, but Mani, I just wanna go back to your question of how did I know... Yeah, I think Mom and Dad always had very clear convictions of... And very kind of strict followers of Catholicism. In the midst of that, I always felt a real authenticity and sort of a consistency in how they lived. It wasn't, it wasn't out of how other people viewed them. It wasn't how... Like, they... You could tell, it was really clear they genuinely believed, that they genuinely believed that, like, that following these teachings would lead us to heaven and make us happy. Like, that to me was so clear, and that... And so the reaction, it was so clear that Mom and Dad were worried that I was going to go to hell. Like, that was... And it and it was because they love me. Like, I didn't, I didn't feel like it was because, like, they... I had no worry about, like, how other people would think or... Like, that, it wasn't out of, like, some other... And I'm, I know other people, like, have that, and so, like, that's why I think it wasn't, or I didn't feel like... And it, maybe there were other things that were going in, but, like, I really felt like it was out of care for me. And what was, but I think what was... I think what for me was the most painful was that belief trumped a belief in me.
Anne Marie:
And that's okay. Like, that just was what it was. And I think that has, to maybe my mom's point, I think that has really shaped my worldview, where I have sort of developed a pretty radical view of meaning to really put the locus of control to individuals. So, like, for example, while when my dad was, you know, in the process of going through, his, going through cancer treatment and, as he was passing, like, you know, Mom and I would often talk about, like, treatment and how, a lot of people had a lot of views. And I felt really strongly that Mom and Dad were in the best position To know what was-- like I might have a view or like the doctors might have a view, but like no matter what the common knowledge or the doctors like ultimately we are in the best, we are given the tools, the best position to take all of that and know like can't be a third party, it can't be the church, it can't be to tell us otherwise like why can we like ask the Islamic extremists not to... Like why can we hold them to a different standard for following their edicts, right? Like, that was sort of the in my mind the thread that, has sort of followed through to my thought process. Whether that's consistent or not, that's, that's been something that has driven my thought process here.
Sharon:
And just to say that respect for Dad and I at that time, that was a real blessing to me. That because we were following a different path than the rest of our kids thought, and Anne Marie just trusted in us to make the decision. It was our decision to make. And, so that was a real blessing. And then, and then for Anne Marie and I, we had a journey to make. We had to be able to reconcile how we could be at two different places. So we would meet, I would go travel to Cleveland every week, every other week for a good period of time, have breakfast together, and we could just ask a question. And they were hard questions, right? Back and forth. And
Mónica:
Yeah, let me, let me just make sure I understand. So there is this, you know, this revelation. There's all the challenges that brought up and your reactions, and your reactions to each other's reactions. There was a time when you even felt, Anne Marie, like, "I can't go home right now. I can't. Like, we gotta make another plan." And then at some point you decided, "But we're gonna meet." I wanna know how that felt like the right thing, even to want to meet.
Sharon:
There was a divide there, like a separation. And I always felt so close to Anne Marie and it was hard to have a divide there so big. And so we just needed to somehow come to understand each other. And it wasn't even to change each other, it was just how we can even comprehend the other person. Is that right, Anne Marie, do you think?
Mónica:
Was that clear to you or were you afraid that there was... That was not gonna be the thing?
Anne Marie:
I definitely think for me at least, I think there was definite fear. I'm sure for my mom, I'm, I'm sure,
Sharon:
Oh, I didn't know
Anne Marie:
Those weren't... Yeah, I mean, I think I definitely was every time there was, like anticipation of, like, I'm gonna be asked to change or I'm gonna be... Right? Like, that, or, like, questioned. And also I was on still shaky ground, right? Like, although I had come to accept that this was what, who I was and what made me happy, the reality of my entire family of origin, at that time all six siblings and my family, every single one told me they aligned with the Catholic church's teaching that, on this, that this was objectively disordered, every single family member. And so the, my entire family of origin, which... And I was sort of, I was a baby girl. I could do no wrong. Like, that's, right, like
Sharon:
We used to say she was our angel. She was our
Anne Marie:
Yeah, I never got in trouble.
Sharon:
And she loved to study, and she was so good to each of us. It was like, oh my goodness. We all agreed on that. She was the holy one in the family. So this is
Anne Marie:
Just, it was a shock. It was a shock to all of us. Like, the and so it was just such a, like, it so it was the fact that... And so I was sort of second-guessing my own. So every time the fact that, like, my whole... It was like how could my entire,
Mónica:
Oof.
Anne Marie:
How could either, like, I'm right and, like, they're all wrong. Like, how could that be true? But at the same time, like, I, like, either I am just, something's, like, incredibly wrong with me or something's incredibly wrong with them. Like, that was what I felt, right? And so when we came, so there was this... But, like, to what my mom said, I also knew, like, there was such a bond with my family, right? Like, what my mom and dad created with that upbringing with us all, these were my best friends. Right? My best friend. Because we moved so much, because, like, I was homeschooled through sixth grade, like, these were my best friends. Like, I was really close to my mom. I was really close to my dad, like, my brothers, sisters, like, this... And so I, like, I didn't... There was something in me that said It was worth trying to keep some level of connection,
Mónica:
Mm. 'Cause
Anne Marie:
Even though the pain of that question of maybe I am so wrong, that was worth that pain, that question, to hold space for that, for those moments, that hour at that breakfast place, at the DoubleTree
Mónica:
With that challenge just by being in the room with your mom. You knew you would be faced with that,
Anne Marie:
Yeah, and sit with it every week.
Sharon:
And I was faced with it too, Anne Marie's back and forth. You know, I was being challenged at the same time. We were both, like, in a precarious situation. And one time, Anne Marie walked out on me. I don't remember what I said, but it must have been a doozy. And anyway, she walked out on me and I thought, "Oh, that's it. That's it."
Mónica:
Mm. Mm.
Sharon:
And she came back. She came back and...
Mónica:
That same instance,
Sharon:
Yes, I just stayed there and she came back. And it was just like, I think what happened to me is just I had to learn another level of love. I mean, I didn't go through saying that, but I just knew it. And I think, I don't remember that we ever, conversationally-wise, ever came to one place. But I know Anne Marie and I have really come close. And I think of a couple of things for me that changed. And Anne Marie, drop-- jump in if you think it's any different, but I don't think our conversations really got us any place, right?
Anne Marie:
I don't think they need to.
Sharon:
No, I don't think they need to either, but I do think our-- the effort of being there together was important. It was like we were wanting to bridge the gap. There was
Mónica:
So without even opening your mouths, really,
Sharon:
Yeah, but we opened them a lot. But
Anne Marie:
We can't, we can't help it, obviously.
Sharon:
But the things for me that changed, I'll just go through a couple examples, Anne Marie. You tell me if there was something else. But I remember Anne Marie had a girlfriend who became serious and, you know, I kind of felt over time that I needed to know who was important to Anne Marie. I needed to know that if I love Ann, I need to love-- I need to know who she loves to understand Anne Marie. So I was going to-- Anne Marie and I agreed that I would meet this woman at a restaurant, and my husband really told me that I should not go, that wouldn't be good. It would just be encouraging to her.
Mónica:
Mm.
Sharon:
I felt... But that's Bob and his thinking and his way of life. He was a lot older than me and he was very set in his ways. Married late in life and very set in his ways. Again, but I had to obey God, and what God was telling me that was that I needed to go and love who she loved to understand her So I walked out...
Mónica:
You had to struggle against even a tension with your husband
Sharon:
Oh, yes. I had to leave home when he was telling me, "Do not go." And, but I went because I had to obey God, and I felt like that was God calling me to
Mónica:
I'm struck by, you know, it created a divide with your husband to try to heal the divide with your daughter.
Sharon:
Yes, it
Anne Marie:
E-even up till, like, the last week before he died, my mom was saying, "Bob, go say-- go give Leanne a hug goodbye." My now wife, right? Like, my mom was, like, encouraging my dad for the last minute.
Mónica:
. Hmm. Hmm.
Sharon:
But when I got to the restaurant, I got out of the car and I mean, that's, this is a little weird, but I felt a, an image of Christ walking beside me, taking his hands, and felt when I saw this woman, that I loved her with the love that God had for her. This is the way God loved her, and I had eyes to love her that way. And, it was a very moving thing. And, it was a very spiritual moment for me because that's how God sees this woman, not as our enemy tearing our daughter away from us in a way we didn't want her, but God loved this woman and who Anne Marie loved, I would love. So, and then the other moment that was very, tough for me, tough in one way and very easy in another way is, and Anne Marie was Oh, Anne Marie was so good. I mean, she still is so good. But she was going to get married to this woman, but what she, Anne Marie
Anne Marie:
It's my ex-wife. My now ex-wife.
Sharon:
Tell you about the other.
Anne Marie:
I married the first woman I fell in love with out of, like, spite for my family. Yeah.
Sharon:
Yeah. But what she did she scheduled their wedding at a time she knew Bob and I were going to Rome, so that we wouldn't have the pressure of not going or figuring it out or me having to go and say goodbye to Bob as I go. She scheduled it that way, not out of concern that we might not come, but out of love for us not to have that pressure to have to be there. It was
Mónica:
Like you knew that you, that you knew that about each other, and you knew that's the way it would be read.
Sharon:
I guess so, Yeah. And then when Anne Marie was getting married to Leanne, and she was telling me they were gonna get civilly married at one point and then they were gonna be, have a different, a more formal ceremony another time. But that Leanne's mother was coming and the family was coming. They were gonna have dinner afterwards, and I just felt like I am not gonna leave my daughter there without someone, family being with her, someone to be with her at this important moment in her... So I actually, this is where I would have some Catholics not very happy with me. I'm fine with it. But I went and I witnessed their wedding, and I signed the book about their promise to love each other, and I was the witness. And I didn't tell Bob I was going. I just went out to visit Anne Marie. But I was so happy to be there with Anne Marie that she wasn't alone, and then when we had the dinner, that she had her family with her too.
Mónica:
Yeah.
Sharon:
Special moments for me, and I would do it over and over and over again, and because I think God is love and perfect love, and that trumps everything in my mind.
Mónica:
Wow. But it sounds like you had to, you had to almost walk or be walked to that, right?
Sharon:
Yeah, it was a, it was a journey, right?
Mónica:
It's a journey.
Sharon:
Yeah.
Mónica:
Wow.
Sharon:
My love for Anne Marie wasn't a journey, but how to love her
Mónica:
Yeah.
Sharon:
When we're living, with two different, plans of how we're living our life. And, so... Is that accurate, Anne Marie? Okay. Do you have
Mónica:
A question that comes up for me on that I've heard from a lot of folks. There's, you know, there's, there's sort of this fear and lack of safety when you're afraid that someone's gonna try to change you and not accept you. And in your story, you know, it comes up in a couple different ways, but in your instance, Sharon, I think about a question that somebody posed to me once, that I thought just kinda nailed some of this tension, is that she wants to learn... This woman told me, "I just wanna learn how to love people well while holding strong to my convictions." And so in your case, your convictions around, you know, Catholic teachings were in tension with questions about how to love your daughter well. And that-- So you experienced that dilemma really deeply. And sometimes people out there are afraid, right, that coming, that getting closer to someone who represents something that is opposed to their convictions would end up being a kind of threat because now you are, now you are kind of like led away from your convictions. But given everything you've been through, how do you resolve that tension? I mean, you've, you've kind of demonstrated it to us already. You've told us the story of that.
Sharon:
Oh.
Mónica:
Sound like it felt like an abandonment of your convictions at
Sharon:
It didn't. It didn't. I think I was finally growing up in the sense of seeing Anne Marie as a person outside of me, as a somebody I brought into the world, but brought her up to have the privilege to live in this world, and this is the way she's chosen to live. And it was-- I think it was like no longer wanting to control who she was or what she should do or that... I think I grew in respect
Mónica:
Hmm.
Sharon:
For what she was struggling so much before with, a trust that her person can be different than mine and beautiful.
Mónica:
Hmm.
Sharon:
Because I was so happy to be there signing that book. I was so happy to be there.
Mónica:
So that had to be a signal inside you that this has to be the right thing. Like,
Sharon:
It signaled that it was the right thing for Anne Marie and Leanne, and I was privileged to witness what they had decided to do together. And just, yeah. Anyway,
Mónica:
Marie, what led you to thank your dad when he kept giving you those books? Does that have to do with something, like, similar, you know, another level of love or what you were saying about your growing conviction that, you know, you can't control other people, you have to let them make their decision?
Anne Marie:
I think, I think I have this sort of image, of the world or of reality of this really big, complex truth that... This is overly simplistic, but a big pizza pie, and that we all have, like, our sliver of experience. And from that sliver of experience, we draw conclusions about the whole. And that, and oftentimes those conclusions are not fully accurate, but it, but it helps us make sense of, like, the whole. And so... And I think that it doesn't, like, that our experiences... I deeply believe that each of our experiences are really valuable indications of that broader truth. But that oftentimes our conclusions may be premature or incomplete. And so that as I look at my dad and some of his sort of absolute conclusions, wh-where sort of I've, I've landed on is that I think he has a lot of wisdom, and that he's had a lot of wisdom, and that he's developed a view of the world that, in my view, drew sort of p-premature conclusions on certain things, but that also had a lot of wisdom. And so try to hold space that to not
Mónica:
You don't know if it's been a trauma and just
Anne Marie:
Disavow everything, but say, "Okay, he had a piece of the pie," and how to, how to let him be himself in that and not sort of toss out all of it, even though some of his conclusions caused a lot of pain to me. And to let him... And to try to create that nuance of distinguishing his life experiences, where of his conclusions or his wisdom resonated with me and where his, where that resonated and where the conclusions didn't, and to try to hold space for that with... A-and to fundamentally hold tight to ensuring that I always filter it through my life experiences, reason and ensure that I ultimately hold tight to me being the barometer of truth for myself, and not as sort of like a, there is no truth, but really that there is an ultimate truth, but that I... Like, the moment I allow either my dad or the Catholic Church or some other, or the Republican Party or the Democratic Party or any other third party determine truth for me versus filtering it through the, my reason, my life experiences, I then am giving over what I think is my obligation to be determining my life and right from wrong and all of that. And so,
Mónica:
Yeah, I see a lot of... There's agency in that. Like,
Anne Marie:
Yes.
Mónica:
You've, you've learned that you have agency. Whatever others think, you still
Anne Marie:
Yeah. And I have to have it, and I think that's where I think with my dad I could say, "Okay, thank you." And oftentimes I would look at the book cover and be like, "No, that doesn't... No, thanks," right? 'Cause it'd often be like how to, how to not be gay or, right? Like, that kind of thing. And so, no, I've, I've come to the conclusion that's, that's not helpful for me. And so I would, I would sort of enjoy throwing them away. But I did not have to tell my dad that I enjoyed throwing them away, and I let him... It was important to him to feel some level of, like, being able to... That was his way to try to love me. But we also, like, we got to a point where we would have, I remember we would have conversations at Wally Waffles, and I would... I remember a couple times being like, "Dad, you're super smart and super rational. Let's talk through, like, I don't understand how the like, this, like, giving over agency to the Catholic Church makes sense." And we would, like, have these, like, conversations, very, like, hyper-rational conversations. He's like a
Mónica:
Could disagree on that. You could actually
Anne Marie:
Oh, we would have, like... Eh, I actually think, like, we got to a point where I think I won the argument, of course. But, like, we
Mónica:
What would he say? I don't
Anne Marie:
No, like, of, yeah, I obviously didn't change his mind. But we would have it, and it wasn't, it wasn't, like... But we would, a couple times we would have these conversations when it was many years later, right? But we could actually have it. And so actually both my mom and my dad, we got to, I think, a place where, like, I don't think there's... I think one of the questions you posed to us in preparation was like, I don't think there's any conversation that I don't think I would, like, Mom, that I wouldn't feel comfortable having a hard conversation. Like, I think we've talked at everything from Sex to abortion to, like any, I honestly don't like think there would be a conversation that I don't think I'd, I'd feel uncomfortable talking through with you, which is 'cause I think we've talked through the hardest of the hard
Sharon:
Well...
Mónica:
So I wanna know, as you know, one of the deep questions underneath this conversation, you know, for me, kind of on behalf of a lot of folks, is how do you build a sense of safety? You know, whatever safety means to you, whether it's sort of trust, a sense of acceptance, sufficient respect. How do you build that sense when there is, like, a sharp divide or there's been a lot of pain, that everybody's wrestling with? How do you build that thing enough so that you can have the capacity to then talk about anything? My goodness. I mean, from A to B here, from A to Z, how you all marched that. So I'll just say back a couple of the things that I've heard so far that I can kind of extract from your story, and then I'd love to hear, a few more before we're out of time. You showed up even when there was effort and pain in the co-presence close enough to a rupture that there was real hurt there. You still decided to make the drive, set aside the time, and even though it would force you to confront your own doubts, you still did it. So that's one that I'm like, "Oh, wow. Okay, so you did that." And then you weren't silent in those... You asked questions. Sharon, you started to say earlier, you know, they were tough questions. You would start to have questions. I also heard there was at least one point where one of you had to leave, but then came back. So there was a rupture, but there was a re-entry, even that small way. But I wanna hear more. I can-- I know there's a lot of listeners going, "Yeah, but how in the world did they do this? Seems impossible." So what And what would you deepen and what would you say? And I take us back to the beginning where, you know, you all were saying there's-- you feel this sense of obligation to share your story and to share your lessons because you know the world is having a real hard time with the big divides. So, yeah, I open the floor, and I wonder how much, how much we can give folks here.
Sharon:
Just I think for me, and maybe for Anne Marie too, I think we fell in love with each other again as adults. Maybe it wasn't because we could answer each other's questions or had fun trying to answer each other's questions, but I think we were just busy at trying to love each other and figure out how to love each other, and I think we just fell in love with each other. 'Cause I feel in love with Anne Marie and, I was just thinking of like, when Bob died, you know, I had a-- I was just talking to God about how much I loved loving Bob,
Mónica:
Hmm.
Sharon:
Him. Like what a privilege it was to love him. And love means a lot of things. Trying to figure him out, trying to, work out our differences and be there when he was sick and try to... It was such a privilege, and I look back on our whole life and our-- we were two very different people, and I, ended up just loving him. And so, but I also told God I really would like a chance in this next decade of my life, 'cause I'm 80 already, to love again like that. And I meant a man, right Ann? So anyway, so I shared that with Anne Marie, and I
Anne Marie:
PSA. Yeah.
Mónica:
There you go.
Sharon:
But it's funny, on a phone call, I mean, this is how much kind of connected together but... And I am with a lot, our other children too. But the-- I told her how this man had asked me out for coffee and all that, and that I wasn't sure. So she said, "Oh, Mom, I think that's great, you know, that you're still wanting to live, you know, you're still wanting to..." And then, and then first, I don't know how it all happened, but then she said, "Well, just hold on a minute. I'm gonna get you up on this dating site for over, people over 50." And it was so funny, but it was-- And I haven't. Anyway, but it was so nice that we have learned to love each other, who we are as persons, not just as mother to daughter, but Anne Marie to Sharon. And, I feel very loved by her. And I-- And another example too, when our son Bobby, he left the family for, I don't know, five years, six years, just kind of took off. And when he came back, he was at our house. It was really wonderful and things were going well, and I confronted him that he wasn't seeing me. You know, it was just kind of like the whole family and I was the mother. I've always been the mother doing this and doing that, and never once did he ask me about, "How have you been over the last five years?" You know, like what happened? And I said to him, I said, "Bobby, you haven't asked me anything about who I am, you know, as Sharon." Like cared about what's happened for me. And I just wanted to tell you that I've been working as a realtor now, and I have a good business. And I started to cry because I really wanted him to see me, different than just mother, wife, whatever. And we built such a close relationship over this, with this divide. Like I'd say today, we're just very close to each other. He's in Mexico and we talk a lot and... But my being vulnerable with him saying, "I'd like you to see me as not..." Anyway, so that's it. It kind of goes all ways, so, but I hope in my life that I can see people more and more as who they are and want to know them and not just some figment of who I think they should be or
Mónica:
Preach.
Sharon:
Whatever. Right.
Mónica:
That's beautiful. Thank you, Sharon.
Sharon:
Okay.
Mónica:
What comes to mind for you for things that you would pass on, things you would highlight in this journey, steps others could find their own way to take?
Anne Marie:
I think so much just riffing off that last bit, Mom, I think so much of what keeps us from connecting is our assumptions around people's beliefs or why they're where they're at, whether that's political, religious, or otherwise. And I think especially when something is, polarizing or when it, when something a really sensitive topic, I think stepping away from trying to, like, have a intellectual debate, but if you can get to really take away and just take all that off the table and just really have a conversation of like, "Tell me why this matters to you." I think that... And not try to, like take off the table initially, like for the first couple of conversations of trying to solve it. So whether it's immigration, abortion, religion, whatever. But like, tell me why, If there's a particular issue that matters to you, like tell me why immigration, like this part, like why is this bothering you so much? Why is how Trump is responding to this bothering you so much? Or why is border control, like why is this particular thing, like why is this making you so angry? Like tell me... But like tell me like from your life experiences, like why is this important to you particularly? Not
Mónica:
You. Yeah.
Anne Marie:
To you, because then I think if you can get to the why, it gets to like why, like the values, and I think we're just not as different as we think. And I often think it's like more about how we prioritize our values and not about that we value things so differently. But oftentimes, our life experiences put our, like priorities on values differently. And so like I might, because I'm gay, having that agency and being like, "No," like, "Let me be myself," it is a higher priority than maybe my dad being like, "Let me practice my religion, and let the Bible be in the classroom," because that has been such a source of identity and structure and importance to him. And so if we can get to that, I, like I... You start then saying, "Why is that important?" You can have a different type of conversation, because then you can start talking about what's important to the individual versus about these sort of packaged conclusions, which I just, I just don't think get anywhere when you're talking about packaged conclusions.
Mónica:
Yeah. Yeah, but when you start with the person and you get in, you get into the person and you try to understand them, you know, then how they construct the world and how they got to their conclusions, it just feels like a fact about them and a little bit less of a challenge to everything you are necessarily.
Anne Marie:
You just get to know them, and I think that's where those breakfasts that mom and I had, that you just... If you can just... I, and I think you need to build that humanity before you can start trying to solve problems, right? And I think like if you started having, on, like on political front, if you actually started having Republicans and Democrats start building friendships and starting to get to know each other and what they cared about, I actually think that's the only way we start solving problems. Because I don't, I don't, I don't actually think either party has the full solution. Like the... Abortion, immigration, taxation, these are all super complicated, nuanced problems. If they, if either party had the full solution, it would've been solved.
Mónica:
Yeah. No kidding. No kidding. Yeah. Imagine if we forced them to all have breakfast a Waffle Stop and, you know, just have to stare each other in the face for a while if they have to, but over time.
Anne Marie:
Yeah.
Mónica:
Well, Sharon, go ahead. Yeah. One
Sharon:
And your title of your book is "I Never Thought of It That Way." I was on a cruise after. Our kids took us on vacations. Anne Marie took me to Costa Rica when Bob died, and, another daughter took me on a cruise. And on the cruise, I was with this other woman, and we shared a room together. And, we hardly ever turned on the television, but we turned it on one night, and there was a political thing on. And all of a sudden, she said, "I hate that man. I despise him. He's despicable. He's everything." Her-- But her body was shaking, and she's just this very loving woman. She's dying of cancer. It's like she doesn't have this political agenda to do. She-- This is truly... And it was like I was watching her and thought, " I get it now." I mean, this was just such a huge thing for her. She truly feels this. I mean, her body was trembling. And, I don't think, I think maybe she thought I was liberal. I don't know. But I didn't say anything one way or the other. I was just blessed that I saw what it meant to her. And then that was it. And then later on that night, Melania spoke. She had a speech on something. And I didn't say anything either. And then she said to me, "You know, I really like what she said." And I said, "I do too." And
Mónica:
That was it.
Sharon:
But we did well, and I love her all the more for having known and her vulnerability to me.
Mónica:
Wow.
Sharon:
Anyway,
Mónica:
Wow.
Sharon:
So I never thought of it that way.
Mónica:
Ah.
Sharon:
I never saw her before. Yeah. It was good.
Mónica:
Anne-Marie and Sharon, we could go on and on and on, and I think a part of me deep in my heart hopes that we find a way to continue this conversation together. I think the depth of wisdom... You've talked about the wisdom of other people, and we-- You have an extraordinary amount of wisdom. I'm over here going, "Oh, my gosh." We've got, we got... Wow. There, I-- Wow. Thank you for everything that you have been vulnerable enough to share today. I saw, I saw how it impacted you just in the conversation. I saw it. And so, yeah, you two are extraordinarily brave and loving people, and I'm, I feel touched, like, by the light that you all emanated with everything that you shared today. Thank you so much.
Sharon:
Thank you. Thank you, Mónica, for giving us a chance to
Anne Marie:
Sometime
Mónica:
Let's please. Oh, please. All right. Thank you. All. All
Sharon:
Bye. Bye. Annie.
Anne Marie:
Bye
Mónica:
A Braver way is produced by reclaim curiosity and distributed in partnership with Braver Angels, KUOW, and Deseret News. Our theme music is by the fantastic number one billboard, bluegrass charting, hip hop band, gangster grass. You can subscribe to a braver way on YouTube and follow us on your favorite podcast app. Wanna chat, You can join our listener text line by texting the word Brave to 2 0 6 9 2 6 9 5, or email us anytime with anything at a braver way@reclaimcuriosity.com. I'm your host and guide across the divide, Mónica Guzmán, take heart, everyone. Till next time