Mailbox: Your questions on hope, betrayal and losing your temper
- 8 hours ago
- 46 min read
In this special episode, Mónica and producer Jessica Jones explore questions from curious listeners about fear, family conflict, patriotism when we're so at odds, and the unforeseeable ways we come to believe what we believe. Also on deck: Advice to a mom caught in a political rift between father and son, what happens when Moni loses her temper, and bridging tips from Mother Nature.
Want to send us your question? Email abraverway@reclaimcuriosity.com!
Credits
Host & Executive Producer: Mónica Guzmán
Senior Producer: Tracy Egbas
Producer: Jessica Jones
Associate Producer & Graphic Designer: Fredo Viola
Contributors: April Lawson & Travis Tripodi
Artist in Residence: Gangstagrass
A production of Reclaim Curiosity
Distribution Partners: KUOW, Braver Angels, and Deseret News
Financial Supporter: M.J. Murdock Charitable Trust
Links & References
Call to Action
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Transcript
Mónica Guzmán:
One of the, one of the greatest gifts that nature offers is this radical acceptance. That there you are in nature, it just is. If it's gonna rain, you don't argue with it, you go get your umbrella. Can we bring that radical acceptance even temporarily to other people who hold beliefs that we don't like? Hi, everyone. Welcome to A Braver Way. I'm Mónica Guzmán, your guide across the divide, and today I'm joined by a very special guest. It's, it's our very own producer, Jessica Jones, who has worked alongside me for how long now, Jess?
Jessica Jones:
Four-plus years. It's crazy. Time flies when you're having fun.
Mónica:
Seriously, it's, it's nuts. I can't believe it's been that long. It's just... I don't know. It's gone by really fast, and it's been so natural to work with you.
Jessica:
Yes. You're a good human.
Mónica:
Just a good time.
Jessica:
So thank you. Right back at ya.
Mónica:
Yay. So what we're doing today is a little different. We asked, all of you, our listeners, for what questions you've had. Now we've aired our first four episodes of the relaunch. You've sent amazing feedback. You've told us who you've shared the episodes with, what you're taking away from them. Sometimes you send, like, long emails and, like, really reflect. Thank you for all of that. We read them all. We respond to everything. It's been amazing. We're, we're really curious about your questions because this is about meeting division with strength. It's about staying engaged and grounded, and we don't, we can't do that unless we're hearing from you all the time, right? This is a conversation, and Jessica knows that. She, I'm seeing her nod. We're, we're always just trading notes back and forth about what we're hearing from our listeners and readers of the newsletter and all these other things, and we'll, we'll make sure that everybody's got the resources for that. Please reach out anytime, by the way. If you didn't already know that we are eager for those things, you know it now. Thank you everyone who sent questions. Jess, what was your take on the questions that we got just in general?
Jessica:
I definitely just wanna echo what you're saying. We love to hear from people, and not just questions, but also just their stories of how, the messages are landing with them and hopefully helping them, right? That's what we're here for. I will say I was a little surprised at how much people wanted to know about you. I think that was, like, the biggest category of questions was more about Mónica. I have a whole very full little container of, questions about Mónica here so... That we can dive into. It's gonna
Mónica:
That's right. For those of you listening and not on video, Jessica has gone ahead and
Jessica:
Had a little craft project.
Mónica:
You are such a crafter. Jessica's got a couple of kiddos and works closely with their school, so I feel like you are a craft master. You've got all the supplies.
Jessica:
I do. I, my office is also my craft room, and so I have all the craft supplies, and yeah, I made a little craft project. I cut out all the questions, and we can have fun. And, you know, 'cause we were like, "Oh, how do we put them in order? How are we going to approach this?" And, this way it'll be totally random. It'll be a surprise for both of us, too, as you answer folks' questions.
Mónica:
Exactly. And there are some questions we got that are tough. In fact, I believe you have a... Can you show the bag?
Jessica:
Yeah, the
Mónica:
You've got a little bag, and in pink marker it says, "Tough!" Exclamation point. 'Cause
Jessica:
These are the tough ones. Yeah.
Mónica:
We got, we got some toughies that I'm like, "Oh, when are those gonna come up?"
Jessica:
But we can do it.
Mónica:
We can. We can. We're here for you. We're here for all of us. We've got this. So yeah. You know, before we hop in, I do wanna say this because I often say this at the end of episodes, but I think it's important to say at the beginning, that our email address is, abraverway@reclaimcuriosity.com, abraverway@reclaimcuriosity.com. We are there, Jessica and I. We read them all. We respond. Please check it out. And then our text line, and we'll put, we'll put down below how to join our text line. You text the word brave to 206-926-9955. Did I get that right? Oh, gosh, I
Jessica:
I don't know. I'm impressed.
Mónica:
We'll check. If I... I think it's in memory now, but I didn't have it right in front of me. Okay. So if that was wrong, you will see the correction down below. We will, we will figure that out. But yeah. But please do. This is, this is gonna be an ongoing conversation, and this will be just the first of what we hope are many episodes where we're just connecting with what you all are saying. All right, Jess. Are we... Is that it? Like, should we just get started?
Jessica:
Yeah, let's dive in. It's gonna be fun. Should we start with, about you, since that was what the people wanna know?
Mónica:
That's what the people want.
Jessica:
Okay, so I'm just randomly grabbing one. All right, here we go. Okay, this one we combined two questions 'cause they were very similar, from Joe in Maryland and Aaron in Indiana. When has your hope in constructive disagreement ebbed the most, and why? And the other version of this is, do you ever think political divisions in this country are too big to bridge the gap? This one maybe should've been in the tough category, actually. It's really hard.
Mónica:
You know what?
Jessica:
So into the deep end you go.
Mónica:
Let's be honest, none of this is easy at the end of the day. I appreciate this question. I've... I guess I've been, I don't know what the word is, lucky? Mm, to mostly ride on a cushion of sort of buoyant optimism and hope through most of this work. I've had a lot of people pull me aside and say, "How do you do that? That doesn't make a lot of sense." But as you know, Jess, that does not mean we have not had our low points and our low moments, for
Jessica:
Everyone does
Mónica:
And for me, I've never lost faith in the power of curiosity or how effective constructive disagreement can be at all, or how needed it is, even when people wanna throw it out and avoid it. That's usually when we need it the most. But I have worried whether frightened, exhausted, despairing people can still have the emotional capacity for it. So I haven't lost faith in the constructive disagreement and the curiosity ever, but I have had my moments where I've been like, "Man, we're so hurt, we're so tired, and we're so scared." You know? Could enough of us be that emotionally heavy that all of this becomes effectively impossible? So those have been my low points. That happened a lot with me earlier this year when the things going on with immigration in Minneapolis led to kind of a big burst of, you know, of chaos and of concern, I think across the political spectrum. And I was hearing from a lot of people who I would normally expect would remain really charged and energized, and even they were feeling a lot of doubt. And so for me, it really came from the fact that, you know, situations change and get disrupted, and people aren't sure whether they can trust certain stable things. And then they're, they just feel that despair. They just feel that hopelessness. So those, that has been the low point. And you probably remember. You remember that. You've seen that.
Jessica:
Yeah. I do remember that. Yeah. I mean, it's hard and... But I'll also say, I think this is true for both of us, that doing this work actually helps me feel more hopeful,
Mónica:
Yeah. Yeah
Jessica:
And 'cause you can see it can make a difference. So I think that's my personal
Mónica:
Yeah, no, and it, and it does. I mean, that's, that's kind of the neat thing about it. The other question, do I ever think political divisions in this country are too big to bridge the gap? No, I don't. Because I don't think that
Jessica:
I think people might be surprised by that response
Mónica:
Yeah, I just, I don't think that what we're bridging is ultimately that tied to the political and ideological differences. It's, there's so much in our imaginations, and there's so much that we're projecting and misperceiving, and there's so much that's spinning up. Which isn't to say, I mean, the divisions aren't real and the stakes aren't really high on a lot of things. But I get historical perspective when I remind myself the periods that we've been through as a country that have been much worse, and we've made it through. We've learned our lessons. We've come out stronger. We usually build something into the infrastructure and institutions to toughen them up. Granted, that feels really tough right now because the institutions themselves seem to be weakening, and people's, people's trust in institutions is really low. But I still feel like there's this sort of pendulating rhythm to everything, where we'll go really far one way this way, and then something will start to correct. And that's not to rest assured that those things will happen, but the historical perspective just takes me out of that recency bias that everybody has, that this moment is completely different and completely terrible, and there's... It's so unique and we're doomed. And, you know, not, that may not necessarily be true. So the historical perspective helps me a lot.
Jessica:
With historians. I think that's a really important perspective. But I think you could say more, if you can, about Is the problem too big or do we just think it's too big,
Mónica:
Yeah, exactly.
Jessica:
The gap.
Mónica:
And it is, it's a perception gap. It's that we think it's too big, and then we think that we can do too little about it. And the truth is that we can do a lot about it, and the truth is that we don't disagree as much as we think we do. But because we stay so far apart from each other, we don't get the chance to correct what's swirling out there, you know, that polarizing partisan forces usually try to, rrr, like ramp up. We don't get to correct those assertions with the reality of just meeting with people in flesh and blood and just being like, "Hey, what do you think about this?" And most of the time, you know, the way that normal people describe their perspectives and opinions doesn't reflect the rage and hostility that you see in the tone of a lot of the discourse that's out there. So, you know, to the, to the extent that we kind of only see that, it's very easy to think that we're just too divided. But a lot of the data also about issue after issue shows that when you ask people what they really believe, they're just not that different, and we keep thinking that the-- We keep thinking that the other side is more extreme than it is. And I talk about this all the time because it's just, it's so key and it's so true and it's so important to embrace and believe and understand. But for me, knowing that and seeing as much research as I've seen just reminds me that whenever I feel too scared about something, hmm, it might be a good time to go and check that. It might be a good time to talk to somebody who looks at it a little bit differently from me.
Mónica:
And, you know, without a doubt that something will get kind of corrected, something will get moderated or complicated, usually in the direction that helps me feel more grounded
Jessica:
. . Yeah, and we learned so much from Axel, on our last episode about when you have that fear activated, and then you can't reach those other parts of your brain, right?
Mónica:
Yeah, exactly.
Jessica:
It's a whole new perspective on it for me. It's so
Mónica:
Isn't it so cool? And yeah, that's why I say that I haven't lost my faith in, like, the skill building and how well that works, but I do worry about whether we're gonna have the resources and the internal resources that we need to each of us take those steps if, you know, things keep moving on in some of these directions. So, but yeah, that's why you and I are
Jessica:
Yeah. But we can surprise each other, right? We can follow Axel's advice and surprise each other, and it'll help us all out. That's great. Okay. Well, thank you. Where do you wanna go from here? Do you wanna do another one about you, or
Mónica:
No, grab, give us another bag. Like, show us. Show us where you wanna
Jessica:
Okay. Okay. This one is just labeled self, 'cause these were questions about folks who wanted to, like, reflect about themselves. So I always think that's a good exercise, self-reflection. Okay, this is from Polly in California, and Polly wants to know, "What can our curiosity about nature teach us about being curious about people?"
Mónica:
Ooh. "What can our curiosity about nature teach us about being curious about people?" That's amazing.
Jessica:
Yeah
Mónica:
Yeah, and I think I remember there was something in this question, she had a little more context about it, that she finds that it's easy to feel open-minded in nature. And I can understand why, because in nature you have no choice but to accept it. Nature just is. There's nothing to argue with. It's quite powerful. It's been there all along. We're standing on the earth and looking at the sky. So to me, you know, one of the, one of the greatest gifts that nature offers is this radical acceptance. That there you are in nature, it just is. If it's gonna rain, you don't argue with it, you go get your umbrella. You know that's just, that's just the way it is. So to me, I think what it can teach us is can we bring that radical acceptance even temporarily to other people who hold beliefs that we don't like? I've found that when we approach people who disagree with us and we want to change them, inherent in that desire is a lack of acceptance of who they are in that moment. You know, "I can't accept you holding this belief, and therefore I'm rejecting you. There's something about you I'm rejecting." I like-- There are thinkers who talk about how our beliefs are sacred to us. What we really believe and what is deeply meaningful to us, no matter who we are, is sacred to us. You know, it may be overall wrong, it may be a bad belief, you know, from some way of measuring that, but in that moment, it's sacred to us. So to accept another person in that way, to just accept that they believe that thing
Mónica:
And that leads you into a frame of mind that's sort of like, "Well, I'm, I'm at the top of the mountain and I'm looking at the view, and this is what it is. I'm not here to try to change it. What can I learn from it? What can I soak up from it? What can I learn about my world by understanding how this person constructs their own reality? What is that like?" It's not obviously something we can do very often because nature cannot be blamed for anything, right? If a hurricane storms through a community and destroys everything, you can't blame the air. You can't hold it responsible. But you can hold people responsible for their actions that they take that you think are bad actions. You know, and that's, that's a good thing in us, that we're social creatures and we want to influence each other, we want to persuade each other. So that radical acceptance, I think, is a good tool. Just every now and then, can you look at the person that you really disagree with the way that nature kinda teaches us to look at nature? Just accept that it's there so that you can become curious, so that you're not rejecting that person outright, and you have a chance of understanding them, and therefore understanding the world you're in. Because we are in a democratic republic, we're not gonna get rid of each other. We have to contend with each other. So that all makes sense. But at the same time, of course, there's a limit to that because
Jessica:
It’s okay to get your emotional umbrella. Yeah.
Mónica:
Yeah, we have to push each other. We have to hold each other accountable. So, you know, it's not radical acceptance all the time for all things. But it's just, even if you just borrow that mindset for a moment, you know? And that moment lets you access, a question you can ask this person about something you really don't understand, that really could illuminate something for you, and could just soften a lot of your anxiety or could at least help illuminate something that's confounding you. That can go a long way.
Mónica:
Yeah.
Jessica:
I think that's really powerful. I definitely never thought of it that way.
Mónica:
Hey, we like that. That's the
Jessica:
I know when you said that, I got chills. I really did because I just think, wow, so much of the time we're trying to convince people even when we don't even realize it, right? So just to have that kind of radical acceptance, even just like suspend it for a second, right? That's amazing.
Mónica:
Because if you, if you suspend it's not like we can’t influence each other, but paradoxically, we influence each other when we don't try to change each other. When the other person feels received and feels heard and understood, that's when you can say, "Hey, can I just offer the way I look at this, you know, now that we're connecting?" it's, it's a lot more effective
Jessica:
Yeah, but hard. Again, hard
Mónica:
Hard. All of this
Jessica:
We can do it.
Mónica:
Yeah.
Jessica:
Okay, that was a good one.
Mónica:
That was a good one. That was fun. Look at that, a little, a little breeze. A little, a little something through the window.
Jessica:
Yeah.
Mónica:
Woo.
Jessica:
Love it. All right, well, let's go to the flip side of that, which is about other people. So folks wrote in, and they were like, "How do I handle this with this other person?" All right, let's get one of those. This is from Paula in Maryland, and Paula wants to know, "What would you do if someone you love," in this case a son, " rejects someone else you love," the son's father, " over political differences? And it feels like betrayal and injustice and just a huge mess." Oh, I feel like we get so many of these questions and stories about ruptures in family, and that's really hard. That's really hard. So what would you tell Paula?
Mónica:
Oh, well first, you know, thank you, Paula, for sharing that. I, ah, that is, that is a very deep kind of pain. A lot of people have a very hard time talking about it openly. The family is that first institution, the most primeval unit we have, you know? It's, it's, it's deep within us. And as much as it can feel like, "Oh, yeah, you know, I just don't talk to this person," or whatever, it's like the, these things carry scars and wounds that are really difficult to navigate. So man, she's in a really tough spot. She's in a really tough spot. She's got two people she loves who are in this conflict with each other. So that gives her an opportunity. She can be the bridge, and it sounds like she's interested in that. And you said it was Paula, right? Sounds like Paula is interested in being the bridge. So if you want to be a bridge between people you love, then one of the things to work on is to protect your ability to make landfall on both shores. That becomes really important if you want to serve as the bridge. Can you protect your ability to make landfall? Meaning Can you, can you kind of safeguard the trust that you have with both parties? That can be really difficult if you have an opinion on what should happen, right? If you think that someone's being unreasonable, your sharing that opinion with one side could impact how well-received they feel by you. People are always figuring out, "Are you on my side? Are you with me? Are you against me?" That can be really painful to feel that scrutiny in your own family, you know? Just, "Is she gonna side with him or with me?" that's really tough. So, but if you want to, if you want to be the bridge, then you do have to think about, "How do I preserve the trust?" So that becomes something that's really important. If, I think another thing that could be a bit of a pitfall in the situation she's in, because I've, I've talked with various folks in very similar situations, is you can put on a lot of pressure on yourself to solve the whole problem. You can tell yourself, "It's up to me," and it's not.
Jessica:
You can't. Yeah, you can't do that.
Mónica:
You can't do that. It can't be up to you. So instead of thinking, "I'm here to solve," you can think, "I'm here to accompany. I'm here to accompany these people, you know, who are messy and imperfect people just like me, and I just wanna be there witnessing what they're going through. I hope I can earn the ability to do that they'll be able to talk to me." you know, there's a reason that people lean on someone else in the family oftentimes in these kinds of conflicts, because that other person knows the people involved, knows something of the heart and culture of the family. And so, you know, they usually glean for some, like, they're looking for some kind of wisdom. And you might be able to provide it, but honestly, through your presence and accompaniment, sometimes it's time and someone there by your side, and you can figure out the way back to each other, if indeed that's what's fated to happen. And also she has this opportunity, to be a kind of translator between them. So it sounds like there's a lot of anger, and who knows exactly what this particular situation is. But it sounds like the son and the dad talking about this themselves is pretty tough. But what they can do is one of them can share full-throated grievances to her, to the mom, and then she can choose, you know, while maintaining trust, while checking and asking permission, " You know, I would like to tell your father some of what you just told me because I think it's important that he understand this and where you're coming from." And she's able to tell the father, but in a tone that he can receive because she can translate to him, right? So then he doesn't have to receive it in the, in maybe the more hostile way that it was initially said or something like that. So that's, that's, that's invaluable in family conflicts, like for someone to be able to do that. But I think the other thing though is that it's really important for anyone in this position to recognize that you can only do what it is in your capacity to do, and so you should tend to your capacity to hold these kinds of things for other people. And again, don't think it's all up to you, and be honest with people when you've kinda hit your limit. Like, "I don't know that I can do that for you, hon." You know? "I'm gonna need to take a break from this." Be as honest as you can with each party and let them know, you know, let them know if something is just getting really heavy for you and I'm worried that, you know, I don't wanna betray your trust or your father's, so help me out through this. You know, what can we do? So it's, it is, it is a really tough place to be. I think it's important to look for small steps, not try to make big resolutions happen overnight, and just offer support within your capacity. Yeah. And these are-- Yeah, it sounds like these are, these are adults who will have to figure, you know, these things out, and hopefully with your, with your accompaniment, up to the point where you can give it.
Jessica:
Oh, well, our hearts are with you, Paula,
Mónica:
Yes. Oh my gosh.
Jessica:
Yeah.
Mónica:
Absolutely with you, and you are so not alone. This is happening more and more. I keep seeing studies. I don't know if you've seen them. I think I've shared some with you. More and more, these family breakups are happening. So don't give up
Jessica:
Was it a third of people? Like, I'm trying to remember what the statistic was,
Mónica:
Gosh, I'm bad at remembering those kinds of details without having her in front of me, so I hate,
Jessica:
I remember being surprised at how many
Mónica:
Yeah. It's certainly gone up since the last election. It has gone up, and it is mostly, it is mostly younger people, doing the breaking up with older people
Jessica:
Yeah. Okay. All right, well let's move on, to another question. What do you think? Political or a tough one? Those are both gonna be tough.
Mónica:
Oh, there's a category called political. Are these all
Jessica:
Yes.
Mónica:
All political
Jessica:
So we did get a few questions, which is not too surprising, right? Where, they had a kind of political nature to them, so they were kind of partisan, in nature.
Mónica:
Oh, I see. Yes. Right. Okay. Hmm. Ooh, and there's also the tough category.
Jessica:
Yeah.
Mónica:
We're ready for something tough? I don't know. These all feel tough.
Jessica:
They all feel tough.
Mónica:
I don't... Yeah. Hmm.
Jessica:
Let's do tough.
Mónica:
Okay, go for it. Yeah. Okay
Jessica:
I'm like going through mixing them up, mixing them up. Okay. All right, this is from Tony in Georgi. This one is also about you. So it's tough and about you.
Mónica:
Oh
Jessica:
“If your family had moved from Mexico into an area that was overwhelmingly right/conservative/Republican, what values do you think might have developed? Are you a product of your environment, and how much do you suspect that's true of most people?”
Mónica:
Mm. . Yes. Thank you, Tony. I remember, a little more to this question that Tony was curious, you know, hearing the story about how I developed my beliefs and noting that I became liberal. I've been pretty definitively on that side of things,
Jessica:
Were you raised in a liberal area?
Mónica:
Well, I'm not sure. I don't think that's necessarily true. I was raised in the Seacoast area of New Hampshire for the most part, and New Hampshire's fairly purple. It's, it's an independent state. I think lately it's been pretty red. I'm actually not sure. I haven't kept up. But it didn't feel that politically, mm, I don't know, active to me in my childhood. I went to college in Maine, so I was in New Hampshire up until college. It was when I went to college in Maine, at Bowdoin College, that I first felt kind of like a political flavor to the place where I was, and it was certainly left. But what I remember noticing about that is all those ideas felt like home, you know? So it wasn't as if being at Bowdoin and being in that liberal-leaning college environment, it didn't, it doesn't feel like it influenced me or pushed me in a direction. It was more like, ah, those ideas click and track with me, and I'm intrigued by them, and I like them. And so it felt, it felt good. So this question, if my family had moved from Mexico into an area that was overwhelmingly right or conservative, like I said, New Hampshire, you know, purplish, you know, not necessarily not conservative. I went to Catholic schools growing up, so they were more conservative maybe than you'd think, but also not as conservative as maybe as you might think. If I had moved into an area that was overwhelmingly right or Republican or conservative, my guess is that something of the flip of what happened at Bowdoin would've happened, where something about these ideas don't feel like home to me. That's my guess, is that, is that something in me is what it is and has these tendencies to lean this way politically. But the most honest answer, Tony, is that I don't know. I don't fully know. I mean, scientists and researchers have been trying to figure out how much is nature, how much is nurture, how much does our environment pull us this way or that. I always say in this work that each of us is the world's reigning experts on our own story, right? So nobody can know better than me, where my beliefs come from. But even still, we're each deep mysteries to ourselves. I mean, half the time if somebody asks me, "Why do you believe what you believe? Why do you believe that thing?" It's not like I have a book report ready to go. I need to reflect on it. And if you ask me on a Monday, but if you ask me, like, the following Friday, I may give you a different answer. And so I don't know. I was looking this up. We have, we have 86 billion neurons in our brains, you know? Mine have been firing for 43 years. Like, can I really trace the origin of everything in my head? Like, no, I don't think so. It'd be cool. But that's pretty hard to do. So given all of that, like, we know Personality, environment matter. We know relationships matter. What sort of, what dormant tendencies in us get expressed? It seems like that comes from the environment, right? So if you have a friend who is like this, and you are, wanna be like that in their presence, then maybe that gets more expressed. Different environments nourish different parts of us, so for sure our environments have something to do with it. Yeah. But I, but I don't know. So I, so I could imagine, like let's imagine that I'd gone to a much more conservative-leaning college. I was thinking about this, and I was like, "Well, it probably would've affected me differently." Maybe I would've kept politics at a greater distance because it was less comfortable, right, for me, because something just didn't, didn't fit and it was a little antagonistic. Maybe I actually would've become more politically engaged because I felt like there was things around me that I didn't like and I wanted to do something about, you know, rather than like-minded people around me. Or maybe I'd have learned to express very different parts of myself. I think I would've emerged essentially a different person, probably in some ways. But again, it's really difficult, really hard to tell. And overall, I don't think that I don't think that having been in a conservative environment would've made me more conservative. I don't think that's the case. I think that, you know, my parents are pretty sure
Jessica:
I was gonna say, you were raised by conservatives.
Mónica:
I was raised by conservatives. Yeah, and I think a lot of it's genetics and personality and tendencies, and you are who you are, and your environment is just gonna bring out different
Jessica:
Nature versus nurture, right? It’s one of life's mysteries.
Mónica:
Just don't know. We ultimately don't know. Make the best of what we got.
Jessica:
Know. Yeah.
Mónica:
Fun question, Tony. Thanks for
Jessica:
It. Yeah, it is a fun question. Something to think about. Okay. Well, let's go political then
Mónica:
Political!
Jessica:
We’re on that topic anyway, right?
Mónica:
Bring it
Jessica:
I’m digging through the bag
Mónica:
I like hearing the crinkle, the crinkle of the bag.
Jessica:
It’s very satisfying. Okay, this is an anonymous one from our text line.
Mónica:
OK
Jessica:
And this person is asking, "How do we describe American patriotism in light of all the political division right now?" I really like this question. I have a lot of thoughts, too.
Mónica:
Do you? Yes. Well, we, you know, it's still, it's July when we're recording
Jessica:
Yeah, that's right.
Mónica:
250th anniversary of the country and the Declaration of Independence just
Jessica:
Yeah
Mónica:
You know, who we are as a country is a complicated question. It always has been. But, to this anonymous questioner from our text line, thank you, thank you. I think that one part of my answer is in his question, how do we describe American patriotism in light of all the division? I think it has to be a we, meaning I could give you my take on American patriotism, but I find that grossly unsatisfying and incomplete to the overall project. Like, to me, what American patriotism means needs to be a collective conversation, and it, and it's, and it's going to necessarily be a debate. There's always gonna be people with different ideas. I think that's good. I think that's healthy. I think the founders would smile on that. Right? It has to be a collective conversation. We define patriotism together. I think it's fairly clear that over the last X number of years, it's been a more fraught conversation, than it has been in other parts of my lifetime, at least. So yeah. Let me say a little about how I look at patriotism. And this is a recent thing for me. I Have I told you that I
Jessica:
You have,
Mónica:
That I just hung American flag on my house?
Jessica:
You did. I love it
Mónica:
It was a big deal. I've... Me and my husband, Jason, we've never put any lawn signs in our house for political candidates or any kind of ideas or ideologies. We've just never done it. You know, certainly our neighbors have. But yeah, something about this year, I just kinda turned to him and said, 'cause we've talked about it on and off, I said, "Is this... Should I just go get a flag?" And he's like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Okay." Like, "We're gonna do it."
Jessica:
I
Mónica:
And my son actually said, like, "Oh, people are gonna think we're on the right," because we live in Seattle,
Jessica:
That makes me crazy though..
Mónica:
I know.
Jessica:
I will say as a proud patriotic American, yeah
Mónica:
I relate. I used to feel like patriotism was a partisan signal, on the right, and now I feel that it is so important that I not take it that way. It's so important that I not take it that way that it felt a little bit like a statement. You know, put up an American flag in Seattle, and if people think you're Republican, so be it. That's their problem. What you are is American and proud. So yeah. So my patriotism has grown. It has grown a lot since I've started doing this work. I've, I've enjoyed learning more about the history. Like you said, we've had a couple episodes. Lindsay Chervinsky, who runs the George Washington Presidential Library, who was such a great guest, told us about Hamilton and Jefferson and their big debates in Washington's cabinet, and I just wanted to be transported back in time and, like, see that go down. Like, it's so
Jessica:
One of my favorite anecdotes is from that episode where I was like, she said if they had Twitter, what it would've been like. Do you remember that? And
Mónica:
It was so fun. We did a lightning round with
Jessica:
So fun,
Mónica:
It was a blast.
Jessica:
Such a great reminder, that, no, maybe we just have more amplification of these things nowadays. But these divides have always been there.
Mónica:
Exactly. Exactly. But it's just, you know, we've been messy humans, but we've actually given ourselves the project and really meant it, what we wrote in the Declaration of Independence, and really meant what we wrote in that Constitution. Other countries have constitutions that are words on paper, frankly. We have actually tried. We have failed. From the very beginning, we didn't live up to our principles, but we keep trying. We keep pushing. And there's a strength, there's a force behind that. Yeah, so I immigrated from Mexico…
Jessica:
And is that patriotism, do you think? That like always pushing, that always trying?
Mónica:
Yes. That's part of it. That's part of it. So I used to be afraid of patriotism because I thought it meant blind loyalty, and I don't want it to mean blind loyalty. I don't think that's right. I'm someone who's just suspicious of loyalty. Like, I wanna make sure it's, it's sorta earned and my relationships are not just, you know, whatever. But what I've, what I've learned is that a better analogy for me, and I've learned this from a lot of my conservative friends, my more Republican-leaning friends, that love of country for me, it... I relate it to love of my children. If my kids are doing something wrong, I don't ignore that. I don't shove it under the rug. I don't say they're perfect all the time, right? But I also, when they do something wrong, don't condemn them forever or don't label them by that thing that they've done. I show love and support by helping them see what they've done, helping them fix it, helping them grow and get better. So that's the way I see love of country, is there's a kind of almost family loyalty. Like, we're on this team, you know? And when we do right and when we do wrong, we're here, and we have to wrestle with it, and we have to figure it out. We have to try to keep improving together. So there's a kind of responsibility. I feel like I'm responsible for this country. So I've also learned not to think of it as me, and then over there is my country. Like, no, I'm, I'm part of it. I'm in it, right? So yeah. So loving my country doesn't mean defending everything it does. Loving my country doesn't mean focusing on one or another, you know, flaw all the time either. It's, it's... Yeah. It's, it's love and support and guardianship and stewardship, for me. But yeah. But it's not my job to define it for everybody else, and I think there's beautiful ideas about what patriotism is. In light of all the political division, I think the most important thing is just that we keep talking about it. What does it mean? This thing that we ultimately... The common ground we all stand on is this nation and this country. So, you know, what can we do to not feel like it's something outside of ourselves, that we're actually participating in it, and we're owning it? And it's ours. And when we're not proud of it, you know, let's, let's figure out what we can do to support it.
Jessica:
I love that. In the we. It also makes me think back to another past episode with Baratunde when he talked about “how to citizen”
Mónica:
How to citizen!
Jessica:
He made it a verb, right? That's one of my favorites.
Mónica:
I love that!
Jessica:
I've learned so much producing this podcast. Yeah, absolutely.
Mónica:
Yeah, we gotta citizen together, yo. We gotta citizen.
Jessica:
That's right.
Mónica:
Nobody else. It's us.
Jessica:
Love that. Yes. Awesome. Okay, let's go back to the personal about Mónica. I'm gonna go through this one. Maybe we'll do a couple of these 'cause there are a lot. Okay. Ooh, this is kind of a spicy one.
Mónica:
Oh no. OK
Jessica:
So this is from Tim in Washington, our home state. He wants to know, "Involving whom or in what situation is your greatest challenge to keep your temper?"
Mónica:
Mm. Mm. I'm making a scrunch face. Mm.
Jessica:
Yeah.
Mónica:
Ah. Oh. Okay, so when I lose my temper, it's almost always with people I know well. It's not with strangers. It's
Jessica:
Laughing ' cause I'm the same actually. That's funny.
Mónica:
Right? Yeah. And I think that's, that bears unpacking. With people we know, we have expectations, and when you have expectations, you have the possibility to be disappointed, right? So with strangers, you don't have necessarily expectations. You,
Jessica:
There aren't stakes, right.
Mónica:
They're, the stakes are not as high. So, yeah, I really only am in danger of losing my temper with people who are really close to me, with whom, about whom I have certain expectations. Chiefly, that they meet me on a plane of reality that I recognize. So this happens largely with my, with my dad, you know, who is conservative, as a lot of listeners know. And when he and I argue and get to that stubborn place, what happens in me is, we'll, we'll get to some rift around something I think is obviously true, obviously true. And he just, it just will not register for him. He just doesn't see it that way at all. Instead of doing what I teach everyone to do, which is let's get curious, right? Like, "Oh, what do you see instead, Dad?" No. I, yeah, something will click, and I will lose my temper, and I start to suspect that he's being intentionally obstinate,
Jessica:
Oh,
Mónica:
Is willfully not seeing something.
Jessica:
Yeah.
Mónica:
And once I believe that, all bets are off.
Jessica:
Then everything's out of the... Yeah.
Mónica:
It's all out there.
Jessica:
So what do you do..
Mónica:
Right.
Jessica:
..when that happens?
Mónica:
Well, look, most of the time, losing one's temper means that you lose one, you lose your wherewithal, you know? So the truth
Jessica:
We just learned the science behind this with Axel!
Mónica:
That's right. So it's like you're hijacked, right? So that's what happens. When I look back at these moments, I don't become conscious of it's happening for many minutes perhaps. You know, hopefully not that many minutes, because as soon as I'm conscious, I go, "Oh, crap," you know? And I know that I'm not behaving according to my values, and then I have to make some choices. Do I, do I take a break? What do I do? Or try to soften or try to go back to where we were in that conversation and try to correct? But yeah, but in the moment, I'm not even conscious of that, and that's the danger of losing one's temper. Because yeah, once I, once I suspect that someone's being intentionally obstinate with me, I stop getting curious about their model and trying to understand how they construct things, and I just start trying to get them to knock it off. And that really takes me completely away from what's, what's gonna stay productive, and all of that. So I'll tell you an example, of something that happened with my dad where I noticed myself completely abandoning the way that I like to be in service of trying to be right with
Jessica:
Our parents can do that to us more than anyone, I think.
Mónica:
Oh, they sure can. It was, I wanna say it was late last year or early this year, my parents were visiting, and we ended up in a huge debate over immigration policy, as you can imagine. It was huge. Like, the kids were uncomfortable at the restaurant because
Jessica:
Ooh!
Mónica:
We, all the adults were getting into it.
Jessica:
" Mom, we're in public." Yeah.
Mónica:
Oh, it was rough. And it, and, like, we're driving home, we're still arguing. We're coming
Jessica:
Still.
Mónica:
Still arguing. We're around the table. And there was a point where something came up around the Supreme Court and presidents and whether they listen to the Supreme Court rulings. And I was so, I felt so confident that what the current president was doing with the Supreme Court was uniquely unprecedented and wrong, and the way I saw, you know, his approach to some of the rulings, that I actually kind of fabricated something. And I told, I told my dad,
Jessica:
That's shocking. I know you well. You, that is not you. Yeah.
Mónica:
Not. It's not." And I told my dad, "I-- By the way, I was reading something, and it said that absolutely, like, this president is the only one who's ignored the Supreme Court this way. I just want you to know that." And my dad at that point, like, nodded and kind of accepted, and he knows to... I don't know. I try to be credible on these things that I
Jessica:
You are.
Mónica:
I usually am. And then I think it was, like, one or two days later, I saw a story in The New York Times that said, "Oh, here's all the presidents who have ignored Supreme Court in the past." And I was like, "D'oh!" And so I actually, I called my dad. I told, I called him or I texted him or, you know, when I could talk to him, I told him, "By the way, I said that thing. I made that up. I'm sorry. Like, I didn't actually find that. I was just, I apparently just really wanted, I really wanted to get ahead of any argument for what I was saying. That's how much I wanted you to accept my sense of reality.
Jessica:
What did your dad say when fessed up?
Mónica:
My dad's a pretty chill guy, you know?
Jessica:
Yeah
Mónica:
So he was like, "Oh, okay. Well, thanks for, you know, thanks for telling me." And I was like, "Yeah." So it's, when I, when I lose my temper, when I really wanna be right, it feels like the person I hurt the most is me, because then I just act in ways that I don't, I don't respect, and then I, then I try to fix it. Yeah, that was really annoying when I saw that I did that, and I really hate being unconscious in those moments and then starting to do stupid stuff. Blech.
Jessica:
We hear this a lot, like, "Oh, you seem like you're just always so open and so calm and so patient." So there you go, folks. Mónica is indeed a human. She is not a robot.
Mónica:
Jessica knows the truth. I'm very fiery. I can be very fiery.
Jessica:
That's good. I think it's good. That's what gives you passion for this work, you know? But it's just like you're saying, like, we can't let that deep thing hijack us, right? We need all the parts of our brain engaged to do this really hard work.
Mónica:
Exactly. Yeah, and there's, there's no sort of, there's no such thing as being done and then coasting. You know, like being done with this as a practice. Like
Jessica:
A continuous journey.
Mónica:
Yeah
Jessica:
And then when you make mistakes, you just own them. That's, I mean, I think that's a beautiful part of your example. You just owned it. You repaired it with your dad. Everybody moved on. Life goes on.
Mónica:
But yeah. I was like, "Dad!"
Jessica:
I just think it's so, you know, fate stepped in and was like, "Oh yeah, Mónica, let me show you with this whole article how wrong you are."
Mónica:
Ah, yeah. And it wasn't until I saw that article that I realized I even told my dad that, you know? That I told a, I told a white lie. I told a little lie.
Jessica:
Yeah. But good for you. You handled it well. Okay, one more personal one. All right this doesn't say who it's from. Let me, let me grab a different one
Mónica:
It might be another text line one. I don't know
Jessica:
Yeah. Okay, this is from Jane in Pennsylvania. "What's one interaction that changed you more than any book ever did?"
Mónica:
Ah. Oh, fun. Yeah, this is one of those questions that I'm glad I had time to reflect on because how in the world do you, like, come up with something on the fly, you know? So my mother-in-law is one of the wisest people I ever knew. She passed away a couple years ago, and there was a conversation we were having, and it ended up being about aging and getting older. And I was saying something about how, you know, if I make it to 90, I'll, I'll be so grateful that, to have lived such a long life and maybe, you know, when I'm close to dying, I'll, I'll not feel it so much because, hey, I'm 90, you know? And I think she was passing on that she had a similar conversation with her own mother, and she thinks about this herself, that she has found that as she grows older, the, a part of her that feels core inside feels ageless, like no time has gone by at all. And she's like, "Mónica, I think that's, I think that's wrong, actually, that, you know, that when I'm 60, when I'm 70, when I'm 80, I'm gonna feel the same. And it's, you know, death is not gonna feel like, oh, it's, it's, it's, it's a more okay time, you know, to be done on this earth." And she's like, "I don't think that's how it is at all." so that interaction stuck with me because I started to realize how right she was. And then there was a conference that I spoke at, a social work conference that had a title, for one of its sessions, and the title was Ageism: Prejudice Against Your Future Self.
Jessica:
Whoa.
Mónica:
I was like.. what? So those two things, you know, I'm in my early to mid-40s. My mother-in-law passed away from cancer a couple years ago. Something about mortality and, you know, just the short time we have on this planet has just been kind of landing with me and trying to be healthy and all of that. But I've also noticed, a prejudice that I've, that I've had about people who are older. You know, I don't wanna be older. These are the ways I assume they... And it's like, that's prejudice against your own future. Like, what up? So that, yeah, it's all combined into a whole thing that's going on in my head about, yeah, how to I mean, people often say that when you, when you think about dying, you're really thinking about living. Like, when you, when you acknowledge your own mortality, you're thinking about how to live well. So all of that, all of that has just combined to give me like a, I don't know, like a fairly big kind of discourse in my head about all of that. Yeah. One wild thing that I did not that long ago was I asked AI to show me photos of myself at 70, 80, 90.
Jessica:
What!? That doesn't seem like a good idea!
Mónica:
Oh, I sure did. Oh, I sure did. And I did it so that I would look at those photos and see them as me and love them, and I've been practicing that.
Jessica:
Like loving your future self.
Mónica:
Yeah.
Jessica:
That’s beautiful!
Mónica:
So anyway, that's just,
Jessica:
I was gonna say, if you wanna know what you're gonna look like, just look at your mom, ‘cause
Mónica:
Yeah, that's usually a pretty good shortcut.
Jessica:
You guys are the spitting image of each other!
Mónica:
One of the photos AI sent me, yeah, I showed to my mom, and I was like, "Mom, it's you." She's like, "Well, wow, AI knows what it's doing."
Jessica:
Yeah. That's awesome. The first time I met your mom, I was like, "Oh my gosh. Yeah, you guys are like copy, paste."
Mónica:
Yeah,
Jessica:
So we know you're gonna look good, 'cause your mom looks great.
Mónica:
Oh, I'm gonna make sure she listens to this one just 'cause you said that
Jessica:
Okay, where do we gonna go from here? I think your choice. What do you wanna...
Mónica:
Let's go to either tough or political.
Jessica:
Ooh, okay
Mónica:
One of the, one of those
Jessica:
Let's do political. That's fun. Okay We can, I, my bias is showing. I was a politics major, so
Mónica:
That's right.
Jessica:
Oh, this is fun because it's from one of our international listeners, Els from the Netherlands. Yeah, people don't know, but we have listeners all around the globe, which is crazy to me and so flattering. So they would like to know, how do you handle fear when people's opinions and/or their groups and/or their party is really threatening the lives of people? So I think we know which side of the aisle Els
Mónica:
You? Oh, yeah. We do know from other contexts he
Jessica:
I guess that's true. It is, oftentimes you are surprised about that. How do you handle it, meanwhile maintaining your curiosity and openness to opinions that are not yours? I feel like we get a version of this question a lot. Like it's about if they're against who I am as a person, right? How can I be open to their ideas and their opinions if they don't even think I should exist? It's
Mónica:
Right. Yeah, that's, that is one wing of it. How do you handle fear when people's opinions or their group's or party is threatening the lives of people? How do you handle it while maintaining curiosity and openness to opinions that are not yours? Yeah. This has definitely come up for me, a lot because, you know, I'm not just somebody commenting from the sidelines. I'm, I'm definitely a part of this society, and I, there's a lot of things that I'm afraid of, on behalf of people I know and, you know, just for myself as a citizen of this country. So I've made kind of a study of fear over the last couple of years in particular, as you know, in some, you know, surprising and unsurprising ways. I've even watched more horror movies . There's a lot of ways, there's a lot of ways to get close to fear and the psychology of it, and it turns out I've, I've done, I've done quite a few of them. I have... Fear is so important because it helps us survive. It's an emotion that is anxiety for something we fear will happen. So fear is about future. It's about future casting. I'm afraid something awful is going to happen. And it does keep us safe because it channels our energy toward survival tactics, fight or flight, those kinds of things. So in a particular situation, you know, if your body is sending you these signals, that you're kind of in a traumatized response, you know, you may need to leave or you may need to fight or these kinds of things. Like, that's very useful. But the conditions of our divided world with so many proven misperceptions, perception gaps, exaggerations, what that has resulted in is a ton of undue fear. We know that there's fear based more on what we imagine than what is real But that fear keeps us from getting close enough to check and tell the difference between what is imagined and what is real. So when I feel afraid, I keep that in mind because to me, what feels like my responsibility is that process of discernment. Can I, can I, can I keep a capability to check my fear, to question my fear, right? Because again, fear can be very mobilizing. It can be very energy focusing, you know? And that's great, and sometimes the things I'm afraid of, oh, yeah, that's the signal. You should go and do this. You should go and protect that. Like, move, right? Pay-- be more vigilant about this issue, and that's definitely been the signal many times. So what I do when I'm really afraid, I don't try to get rid of my fear. I try to check my fear, and this is the habit that has revealed itself for me, from the very beginning, is when I'm really afraid, I will try to talk to someone who isn't.
Jessica:
Hmm.
Mónica:
My habit. I will talk to someone who isn't afraid about the thing that is scaring me.
Jessica:
Okay, so say more about that. So maybe that's someone on the opposite side politically or... Yeah.
Mónica:
I mean, this is, this is how I started talking to Travis, who Jessica knows, and you all will know soon enough,
Jessica:
Yay.
Mónica:
I think maybe the next episode.
Jessica:
Think the one after this, yeah
Mónica:
That's right. Travis Tripodi is a good friend of mine who has very different political views, and soon after our current president took office, I started calling him just saying, "I just wanna know what you think about this." Right? And I would say it in that tone, and conversations with Travis were, illuminating and frustrating and hard and good because he would see it very differently. The reasons he was not afraid, a lot of them made sense to me, and so would therefore make me a little bit less afraid, but no less able to see what is there, no less able to see what's true. But it left me with more confidence that, more confidence that hopefully I'm not being hijacked by undue fear, 'cause that's the thing I want to protect myself against too. You know, 'cause while fear is so powerful and incredible for us, when we are afraid, our judgment is impaired, our ability to collaborate is hijacked. So I like it when I can collaborate. I like it when I'm grounded and I'm steady, and being too afraid takes me away from that place of power, right? So yeah. I've also done it with my mom. When Roe v. Wade was overturned, I was scared, and that-- she was the first call I made. It was an instinct. Before I even thought about it. It wasn't like a strategy. I called her. And we even cried together, and she learned some things from me that she didn't know. But I also learned things from her that I didn't know. And it's also, it becomes so important to me because I will tell myself these stories, you know, that these people who disagree with me are not afraid at all. They're not concerned at all, and that's not true either.
Jessica:
Mm. Oh, that's
Mónica:
I, reach out to for that different perspective absolutely are concerned most of the time. Maybe not to the degree that I am. Usually not. Not for the same reasons. They'll introduce new concerns to me that just kind of make a whole web of intricacies. But, yeah. There's this concept, I think in somatics, it's called co-dysregulation, where if you are really afraid and really emotionally activated, and you go to somebody who is equally afraid and emotionally activated, you will, you will soothe each other by validating each other, but you will also intensify each other's fears, right? So I think about how do I get regulated? And so I think that's a mix. I need to talk to people who agree with me, you know, to check those things, and I need to talk to people to disagree with me, just to see it from a different angle and see if there's something I can discern here about where my fear is backed up and where it's not. And that just makes me feel more, I don't know, like I'm, I'm standing on my own two feet a little better.
Jessica:
What this brings to my mind is that not everyone has that friend or relative that they can call, right? And that's a big part of why we are doing those episodes with Travis, so folks can hear, from someone they might disagree with, whether it's you or him. But are there other strategies you think that folks could use besides talking to another human? I'm thinking about our episode with Isaac Saul from Tangle, which
Mónica:
Oh, yeah
Jessica:
I recommend it. Just reading the news from a different perspective, right? Maybe that could help you also, along these lines
Mónica:
It's the voices you surround yourself with in general. I have been, ooh, in like a struggle with my own news consumption because there's this tension between being informed so that you can be engaged and not being emotionally abused by everything so that you can stay grounded. And everybody knows their own balance, and I'm still trying to figure mine out. I've recently backed off even more. Like, I go in and I come out, and I go in and I come out, and I hope that each cycle I learn more about what the actual balancing thing is. Yeah, and I can get sucked in very easily to lots of affirming voices online and then forget to look at any other angle, right? That could, that could help moderate me. Not moderate my opinion, but moderate my temperament. That's what I'm looking for. It's two different things. So yeah, you can absolutely do that too. It's just, you know, are you talking to real people? Are you, are you checking in with what makes you happy? But by the way, let's also be clear, fear can be a great signal, and if there's something you see that is making you afraid, you check it. Oh, it is real, and there's people close to you and you are motivated, then take action. Like, sometimes that's the way you deal with fear is you take action. Absolutely. Right? Yeah, so me and my husband do a lot of things for free speech because that's something that really, like, gets to us. And everybody's got, everybody's got their own thing. So find your own thing and stay active where you can. Just make sure you don't lose the ability to check
Jessica:
Yeah. And it sounds like, yeah, yet again, nothing quite substitutes for another human, right? So try to, try to make those friends or
Mónica:
Relationship help
Jessica:
Maintain them. Yeah.
Mónica:
Yep
Jessica:
Okay. What do you think? Do we have time for another one?
Mónica:
Sure. Another one what?
Jessica:
Another question
Mónica:
Oh my gosh. It's been... No way. It's been an hour!?
Jessica:
I know. It's already been an hour.
Mónica:
Oh my do you think we could we try like a lightning round or no, we should just keep it, keep it slow
Jessica:
We could maybe with the personal ones. Here, let me take a few
Mónica:
Would it be-- Yeah, I don't know
Jessica:
If I can. Oh, I don't know.
Mónica:
Maybe not
Jessica:
Let me try I'm not sure we're equipped for this.
Mónica:
Is a challenge. I
Jessica:
Oh, well, this is a fun one. It's a little more lighthearted. "What keeps you busy when you're not doing this?"
Mónica:
Ah.
Jessica:
From Don in Washington.
Mónica:
Ooh, this is fun. Okay, Don, good stuff. All right, what keeps me busy? Tonight I have my Dungeons & Dragons group. We've been playing for years
Jessica:
Love it
Mónica:
That's like hours of storytelling, role-playing games. It's such great fun. I have a piano. Her name is Anya. Yes, I've named my piano. I love my piano. She's upstairs. She means the world to me. I love singing and playing and yeah, I do a lot of that stuff.
Jessica:
You have a beautiful voice.
Mónica:
Oh, thank you. So do you, by the way, Jessica. Jessica also sings. I love having friends over. Our kids are often like, "Who's coming over tonight?" And if we say nobody, they're really disappointed. So we love that. So yeah, those are a couple of things. Oh, and number one is, movies. I absolutely love movies.
Jessica:
People might not know that you actually studied film.
Mónica:
I sure did.
Jessica:
Fun fact.
Mónica:
Big fan big fan and the way I got into journalism was by being the movie reviewer for my college newspaper that's how that's did you know that?
Jessica:
No, I didn't know that.
Mónica:
Oh, and the way I got into kind of techy internet things was, I made a movie review website in the '90s. I feel like that's actually kinda like geek cred. I did. It was called Phantasmia's Movie Musings. It's no longer online.
Jessica:
If D&D wasn't enough geek cred, there you go. That's like next level. Okay, this is another fun lighthearted one. This is from Kevin in Indiana. “What is the favorite part of your week?”
Mónica:
Ooh, what is the favorite part of my week? I'm gonna say it's always, it's always like if I get to have a really in-depth, awesome conversation. Just you can't,
Jessica:
Of course it is.
Mónica:
It is! You can't always predict it 'cause you can't schedule those things. But, often these days it's happening with my kids. My son is almost 14
Jessica:
I love it
Mónica:
..my daughter is 11, and they are incredible people and they're growing and I love our relationship. We just went to Japan for a couple weeks vacation. We had incredible conversations. It was, oh, it was wonderful. And I don't know, I think a lot of us take for granted, you know, when those things happen it's magic. It's absolute magic
Jessica:
Right? Especially with your, the little humans that you're helping
Mónica:
Yeah
Jessica:
usher in the world, right? That's very wonderful. Yeah. I love that.
Mónica:
Gooey. I feel gooey now.
Jessica:
Good. Well, should we end there? I think those are all the kind of like fun ones
Mónica:
Okay. Yeah. Okay. I feel like, oh, but I, we're just getting started.
Jessica:
I know, I know. I mean, we can keep going, but you know, I think we answered quite a few,
Mónica:
I think we did
Jessica:
And we are going to keep doing this. That's the important thing, and we want people to send us more questions, at A Braver Way at reclaimcuriosity.com, and really all the questions about anything, big or small. And also share your wins with us. We would love to hear and share some of the stories on a future episode.
Mónica:
Oh, that'd be amazing. That's so true. And if you know of anyone in your life, or maybe it's you, who you've, you've, yeah, you've, you've achieved something across the divide, you've repaired a relationship and you're both really excited about it, we'd, we'd love to hear from you and maybe even elevate your story. I mean, Jessica knows this. It's, it's so... We hear from people what actually makes a difference for them, and, you know, the skills are important, obviously the insights are everything, but there's nothing like a model. There's nothing like somebody who was able to do that thing. And it doesn't have to be extraordinary. You know, we're living in a time when these ruptures are every day, and it's all those little paper cuts. It's all those little tears in the fabric that are leading everybody to think that, "Oh my gosh, we're sinking." The truth is, a lot of people are in their own ways, right? It's not rocket science. They're figuring out, like, how to be human with each other in a really tough situation to the point where they can, they can heal, they can repair, they can at least take steps, make progress. We're in, we're in communication with a lot of folks and just watching their stories and witnessing, and whenever we can, we like to bring it to you. So the story of Anne Marie Denman and her mother, Sharon Morris, that we brought you in, the third episode back, oh my gosh, that. That right there, you know? That happens more often than you'd think. So if you, if it's happened with you, if it's happened to you, if you know someone, let us know, please. We're, we're very much about, shepherding people's stories, you know? We're not here to grab 'em, take 'em, cut 'em up. That's not what we do. You know, want, we want people to really have the time to show, like, who they are and what they've been through and what they learned together. So we are, we are so eager for those because we know that all of you are. So please let us know. So again, Jessica, that email is?
Jessica:
A braver way at reclaimcuriosity.com.
Mónica:
Hey. All right, and you can join our text line. I feel like I should double-check this. I'm going to our website just in case.
Jessica:
I'm gonna say I only know two phone numbers by heart
Mónica:
Yeah, I
Jessica:
So I'm impressed
Mónica:
I still know the phone number of, like, my best friend in sixth grade. Isn't that funny? Yeah, there's number strings that just stay in there. Okay, so here it is. Text brave. I did get it right before. Text the word brave to 206-926-9955. It's really... What's fun about the text line is it's really easy to just, like, jot a quick note there. We'll also let you know, the days where new episodes drop. And every now and then we send, we send questions exclusively to our text line, that are a lot of fun to hear back from you on. So there you are.
Jessica:
If you don't wanna, like, type it out, that's cool too. Like, do a quick voice memo. You can email that to us. We would love that.
Mónica:
That would be cool. Yeah, email us a voice memo. I hadn't thought about that. That's cool. We need to... Okay, now I was about to talk to my producer Jessica, like, "Jessica, we need to find a good tool to make that easy for people." Okay, we'll take that offline.
Jessica:
That's funny.
Mónica:
Thanks
Jessica:
We always iterate and improve. Yeah.
Mónica:
Are, we are. We're experimenting over here. That's what we do. All right. I feel like we should've gotten through more questions. I'm mad about that, but that's
Jessica:
We did a good job.
Mónica:
Our producer, yeah, Jessica's doing a great job of making sure that we don't go on forever, so we're gonna do that. We will close here, and, there are more questions, and we'll find, we'll find ways to respond to those and keep hearing from you all. So thank you, thank you, thank you, and stay curious out there.
Yes. Stay curious.
Mónica:
All right. Thanks, Jess. So much fun to join you on this. This is great. All right, bye
Jessica:
Okay. Bye
Mónica:
A Braver way is produced by reclaim curiosity and distributed in partnership with Braver Angels, KUOW, and Deseret News. Our theme music is by the fantastic number one billboard, bluegrass charting, hip hop band, gangster grass. You can subscribe to a braver way on YouTube and follow us on your favorite podcast app. Wanna chat, You can join our listener text line by texting the word Brave to 2 0 6 9 2 6 9 5, or email us anytime with anything at a braver way@reclaimcuriosity.com. I'm your host and guide across the divide, Mónica Guzmán, take heart, everyone. Till next time